If BJ is a BJJ black belt, why does he not submit people off his back?

Well he is and always has been a positionally oriented guy; he considers a sweep of his back a better move than going for a sub, hard to blame him. Ralph, his first real teacher is very similar in that regard, from what I know of him. I don't know as much about the preference of Nova Uniao, but they might be the same way. In his run to the BJJ Mundials, he was very much a top game guy, a bit of a blanket if you can believe that.

He may not sub guys off his back, but he takes their back directly from his guard, he did it to Matt Hughes in the second fight; and despite people's opinions of Hughes (although people are coming back around) and that fight in particular, taking Hughes' back while he is in your guard requires absolute mastery.

 

Stop, you'll give me a big head.

Well it is, and I'm sure BJ can sub very good grapplers off his back.

When it matters though, in competition, he only goes for subs off his back when it is a matter of last resort, his first thought is get to a better position, be it standing up, a sweep to be on top, or taking the back, which again he is excellent at. A bit of risk vs reward if you will.

I think a top level BJJ black belt, well any black belt, is able to sub people off his back, and I'm sure BJ is more than capable of doing against very good people, he just sees it as not worth it compared to the risk and the fact that being on your back in MMA is usually a losing proposition.

A BJJ mantra is of course "position before submission" and BJ seems to take that to heart, always wanting the best position possible, the back with hooks in.

 

some people just have different type of games. Like Beebs says BJ seems to like taking his opponents back.

When i first started BJJ everyone was bigger than me so i was ALWAYS on my back and having to pull guard. I basically became so comfortable at it i didnt mind being on my back.

 

Like Beebs stated above - BJ is a top game fighter. Everyone has their particular strengths and BJ prefers a relentless top game over fighting off his back.

 

Because a wrestler with a strong base + gnp > bjj. Look at all of the bjj blackbelts. Every time they get put on their backs most of the time thy just sit in the guard position and try and survive the g n p. They might go for a sweep or a sub every now and then, but most of the time they just sit in guard. Pens last fight is a good example, so is the anderson silva fight (yes I know he got the sub at the end and he was hurt, but he took 4 1/4 rounds of a beating). As the mma game evolves people are starting to figure out how useless bjj is to a wrestler that has half a clue of what he's doing.

 

yep. worked awesome for sonnen...until he lost

:huh

 

Exactly my point. Have you ever rolled with a bjj blackbelt? they sweep you, they transition seamlessly, they do a whole bunch of crazy things, and in the past 2 ufc events we've seen 2 bjj blackbelts. What have we seen from them? the basics, no sweeps, no seamless transitions, nothing crazy at all, we just see very basic things. Why? because the wrestler had a strong base and more importantly, can throw punches.

 

but the BJJ won


throwing punches doens't mean **** if that's all you have and you can't finish....slapping someone's arm 500 times only to end up submitted isn't exactly a victory

 

If you call a basic submission that someone with 2 months of bjj training can execute "bjj winning" then you're completely missing the point. Anderson silva is a black belt in bjj yet he took a beating in his guard for 4 1/2 rounds and won with one of the first submissions you learn in bjj. That shows(not conclusively proves) that most of the 'mid to top level' bjj training is useless in ufc and all you need are the basics. There were no sweeps, no rubber guard, no transitions, hardly any submission attempts, i.e. no high level bjj, there wasnt even any mid level bjj, it was just a bjj black belt getting owned for 90% of the fight and winning with a basic submission. Saying bjj won because silva submitted chonnen with a basic submission is like saying 'boxing won' because someone got knocked out with a left hook.

 

thanks for proving my point...he won with the simplest most basic submission...guy has an off-night and still wins using a basic bjj sub

sonnen had 4 1/2 rounds to finish it but he didn't, just like carwin...punched himself out, and a "wrestler" subbed him with an arm triangle...go figure

 

If you think any old BJJ guy could get that sub you are out of your mind.

Just because the technique is classic, doesn't make it easy. A punch is classic, but properly doing it against a competent opponent is not, same with a sub.

 

^^^ what he said.

Being very good at basics can take years of practice. Boxers throw 1, 2, 3 for years to make it clean. Same thing with BJJ, to be able to feel the opening, position, timing, it all counts. Rickson Gracie could submit BJJ black belt with a submission of their choice. The story goes, they picked triangle and he subbed several black belts with triangle.

You're right, all you need is basics. Which goes for pretty much all of combat martial arts.

I think perfect example, not sure if you're into wrestling, it's Saitiev, he does basic moves but he does them perfectly. He's considered to be one of the greatest if not THE greatest freestyle wrestler.

 

think of it like a boxer with tons of talent but real glaring flaws like a zab judah. he can amaze you with his abillities and let you down with his glaring weaknesses. you have probably learned years ago to never bet on zab judah because of his mental weakness same is true for bj penn.

also bjj defense dosent get you any points in MMA

remember first off that BJ penn is not that accomplished in BJJ most of his fame comes from being the first non brazillian to win the Mundials and then the World Jiu-Jitsu championship in 2000 with just three years formal training. after this he has no significant bjj accomplishments because he then started his career in MMA. his skills are
quite good, strengths being his aggressive attack from top position and from the opponents back and his bjj defence from the bottom and his sweeps from the bottom, also his chokes.

I say this as a huge fan of bj penn and his skill set (boxing/bjj) I love to see great takedown defence but bj's TD defense is just mindblowing (not against edgar of course but gsp could not take him down in the first round in there second fight )

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even with his obvious talents he has some flaws I think the best answer is to watch and see it for yourself.

this is the match which won him the gold at the Mundails in 2000 with supposedly 3 years prior training.

bj penn is the one who sweeps to gain top position
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSoO6IvAnw[/ame]


as you can see here, his bjj skills are excellent. from the bottom he sweeps and from then on is on the offensive.

very similar to his approach in mma, his top game is relentless and when he gets your back he can wear you down until you submitt. look at what he did to gomi at rumble on the rock 4.





here is another vid of bj. training with a bjj legendLeo Vieira

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1kLYq2noc8[/ame]

first of all this is no gi similar to mma with the exception of strikes, I think this shows without a doubt how difficult it was to gain an advantage over bj in brazillian jiu-jitsu



this one is an mma fight finally
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAmCCRIGhGs[/ame]



the first round is the study here, bj spends most of it on his back and uses his bj as a defense to keep his opponent (Renzo gracie- who is by the way a bjj black belt from the gracie family and famous bjj trainer, trained matt serra) from advancing position he will instinctively control his opponents arms and legs from the bottom. his style is very defense orientated and remember this is an mma match and without strikes renzo accomplishes very little.

bj looks to defend from the bottom not attack as beebs previously stated he focuses on getting to his feet or sweeping, so when neither can be achieved he can look pretty bad, but always look at his bjj defense from the bottom and you will be impressed even in losing efforts(like gsp penn II). heres a defensive bjj maneuver called the jailbreak from that fight.

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if I had to critique his guard I would say within the realm of mma he needs to be more aggressive from the bottom, but im not sure if he can. his bjj while very good is just not as dangerous from his back as fabricio werdum, damien maia, jacare suza, roger gracie, ricardo arona, vinny magalhaes.

even guys with less credentials like who have made a name for themselves in Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Fedor Emelianenko,Nick Diaz, nate diaz, sinya aioki, and matt sera. are more dangerous off their backs in mma.

this is one of his glaring weaknesses and thier are many mma fighters (mostly wrestlers with good top control) who can exploit it..... provided they can get penn to the ground and keep him there.

I think styles often have to do with an athlete playing to their strengths I believe this is the case with bj penn. Thats why I think his submissions from the gard are virtually non existent. interesting since he has so much flexibility (he did attempt rubberguard on gsp in the second fight but did not have success with it) you would think this would be a big part of his style.


ps damn my spelling sucks, all I see is red underlinings and I am tierd of fixing it.atschatschatsch

pss I looked for the gif with matt hughes tring to take down bj almost getting him down but bj stays on his feet. I couldnt find it, who's got that one.