the talent of willie pep vs the talents of srr.

If by talented you mean who is the better pure boxer then i say Pep.

Pep is the definition of 'hit and don't be hit'. He's a master boxer with unparalleled footwork. He had all the tricks in the book to keep his opponent off balance, out of rhythm, and just plain guessing what was coming next.

Ray Rob was a silky smooth boxer who could string together these amazing punch combinations. Within these combos, every single punch did damage. Better puncher, but couldn't use his feet in the fashion that Pep did. Pep was all brains out there.

 

Robinson was clearly more talented, in the sense of the word. He had the complete package physically-chin, speed, power, accuracy/timing... Pep is the better pure boxer. That has something to do with talent, but arguably more to do with technique-he certainly was fast as **** and a very coordinated human being, and surely his chin was very good- but robby was more talented.

 

Define 'talent'.

 

yeah, Ray Rob was the better athlete. Talent can mean different things. A mathematician is talented.

 

I just used physical. Mental talent, including toughness, the ability to learn boxing well, and a bunch of other factors are impossible to quantify.

 

Robinson

His Technique + Power has never been matched in the sport.

 

For what it's worth...
I saw Willie Pep [pre plane accident]at MSG against a top lightweight Allie Stolz.
He could anticipate his opponents next move, and move out of firing range, like no fighter I ever saw.'The Will Of The Wisp ", he was called for good reason...
Ray Robinson ,was when I saw him against Henry Armstrong in 1943[he toyed with old
Henry} the Perfect and Tall boxer, gliding around with that beautiful long left jab,
waiting for the opportunity to explode with such deadly and accurate combinations
that was something to behold...Saw him about 4 or so times...
If I had to pick between them at equal weights, I without question pick Ray Robinson.
Robinson best I ever saw ,followed by Willie Pep... Ah, the golden 1940s...

 

pre plane pep is something i would kill to see live. that said, i have to agree with you. from what i've seen pep was so supremely good at evading and countering that he was virtually unbeatable to all but the very best. however, while pep was a defensive savant, robinson did EVERYTHING so well it looked as easy as breathing. he was more varied, infinitely better offensively and could adapt when out of his comfort zone

 

Pep had more talented feet, Robinson had more talented hands. Since I think Robinson's feet were more talented than Pep's feet, I vote for Sugar Ray.

 

When it comes to pure talent i think it's very close. Pep was so natural with it. I go with Robinson though, these vids of him in his prime that we all discovered not long ago on youtube are no joke.

 

I gotta go with Pep in terms of talent and skill. Lemme rephrase that: Me and Sugar Ray Robinson go with Pep. Pep was the best boxer Robinson ever saw, and that's saying something.

Robinson was more devastating to be sure, but I think that is what skews our perception as males. We, as boys and men, are biologically programmed to enjoy breaking things and in that sense, Robinson satisfies that in us.

But Pep? His talent was other-worldly.

Baryshnikov looked like the Tinman next to him.

 

once again i'll regret this but i think i have to disagree. pep's evasive, movement and timing were other-worldly. but he lacked power...he lacked offense and could be bullied. pep was sooooo amazing at what he did that he almost never needed to adjust. but when he fought an opponent who prevented his movement (angott) or sufficated him with aggression (saddler), even though he was past peak, he didn't make the adjustments needed. he couldn't fight at all distances and hadn't mastered all aspects of the game to the degree robinson had. for me, robinsons devastation, his explosiveness on top of every skill and technique in the book take this

 

I agree with this.

I do think it depends how you define talent. SRR has height and reach, which was helpful. This isn't generally viewed as talent, but talent is really just genetic variation. Height is part of that even if it's luck of the draw. Just as running, jumping, etc comes more naturally for others. Punching power, is also a natural ability albeit talent.

Pep has worldly reflexes, footwork, etc. Some of these things fall in skill, but anticipating a punch before it's even thrown is freak type talent.

It's interesting because both fighters are one of the greatest fighters ever, but not neccessarily the most technical fighters of all time. Both were surely one of the most talented fighters ever. They could be the top 2 in fact.

 

I actually think it's pretty straight forward and doesn't need breraking down technically or in any other specific way. In terms of what the thread is asking us to look at, we are looking at two of the best ever, in the eyes of some they are the two best ever. It's very close, even when you weigh up all things and factors. I have Robinson personally. I'm not going to come across patronising and get into what one could do that the other coudln't, i'm just not feeling that type of analysis in regards to this debate. They are both talented on a ridiculously rare level. And i'm also not getting into why some of their respective talents could be deemed as pure talent or as derived from physical gifts, it's all academic imo, because again, they are both talented on a ridiculously rare level, period. That's how i see it personally, and i side with Robinson.