Floyd Patterson vs Muhammad Ali Prime for Prime

:goodthats how i see it.i don't think sonny liston could ever beat ali either, and i'm an admirer of liston.

 

That's how I feel. Muhammad would always have had Sonny's number.

 

I must say I find it surprising that a fighter's injury "explanation" is taken at such face value. How about Ali's "sprained ankle" in his first Norton fight and his "busted right hand" in the other? Should this alter our view of his Norton trilogy?

I don't doubt that Floyd's back was bothering him, but I don't think the film suggests he was absolutely crippled by it. He was still swinging in punches and trying to duck punches. That he looked lethargic was probably largely down to him taking a beating from the second round and just not being able to cope with Ali's advantages in speed and size.

Also, Floyd had back problems in basically his whole professional career (not really surprising considering his style), and I see no reason to doubt that this was worsened mainly because of Ali's punches. What Dundee said about how Ali's sparring partners reacted to his punches give this extra weight.

 

Patterson must have been in some pain, they were frantically giving him back massage and trying to stretch him out in the corner. His ducking looked pained and awkward too.
I give him credit for fighting on with injury, since Liston apparently "retired with an injured shoulder" or whatever.

Patterson was as brave as they come, and had incredible hand speed and decent power, but i think he's become a bit overrated. In my book, he's one of the weakest of the heavyweight champions.

 

His bravery is in no doubt whatsoever and obviously something was bothering him in the fight. The questions is rather exactly to what degree, how much it influenced the fight (he looked well out of his depth from the opening bell and I think his back is said to have gone in the 4:th) and how much Ali's punches had to with the injury.

He's certainly not among the greatest champions, but ahead of Burns, Willard, Sharkey, Carnera, Schmeling, Baer, Braddock, the Spinks brothers, Douglas etc.

 

All I know is that for two thirds of the fight, Patterson looked like the hunchback of Notre Dame and was incapable of making any kind of a fight out of it. Obviously fighting a prime Ali had a lot to do with it but Patterson still looked very slow and ponderous in there compared to his usual self, to the point where you had to wonder if his back was troubling him, and it was.

Ali's landed punches had nothing to do with Patterson's back injury in my opinion but rather his constant bobbing & weaving that he was forced to do to avoid Ali's fast punches, at an even more rapid pace than usual.

In the rematch Patterson was able to showcase more of his abilities that troubled Ali (who was not the Ali of 1966, but still a very good fighter):

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odm1uCTMq_I[/ame]

3:05 (mute the music)

 

Pattersons chin would let him down against Ali.Pattersons hand speed is as good as ali's but he would have trouble with alis height reach and footwork.I think ali stops in the mid rounds.Patterson could be a bit of trouble to Ali while it lasts though

 

Is he ?
I know he regained the title, but he never dethroned a champion in the first place .... his defences were some of the worst ever ....

 

Floyd look much better in the second fight. But I think Ali's approach to that one was wholly different. Both in terms of preparation, mindset and tactics.

I see no poblem to put some faith in Dundee's suggestion. I have myself taken stiff jabs on the forehead from taller fighters and felt the force snapping in the neck and spine. Make that a couple a dozen a round, combined with the occassional right...

 

Well, many of the ones I mentioned didn't make one succesful defence. And no one of them regained the title.

 

[dm]xq3oo_muhammad-ali-vs-floyd-patterson-i-p_sport[/dm]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O68Z7DJxXbo[/ame]


I just think there's a difference here, in the class of the opponents also, but in Patterson too when you look at his moves. He was usually pretty aggressive, but against Ali he takes a step back after every move he makes and generally just looks ponderous. Again, credit should go to Ali for making him look like it, but personally I don't think it was the best of Patterson.

Feel free to disagree because Ali in his prime was truly in his own class and it's very difficult to see Patterson being able to beat him, or even making it close.

 

Well, let's just say that it is hard to be exactly certain. But Ali (especially back then) often made very good opponents look bad (Moore, Liston and Terrell also comes to mind), and it's kind of ironic that this seems to be more often taken as proof that they were wastes of space when Ali met them, rather than as proof of just how good Ali was during those years. I'd say that prime Roy Jones gets a similar treatment.

For me, I was just surprised that this fight (which took place when they were both in their primes) wasn't even mentioned when a prime for prime match-up was discussed. I don't think it's nearly that conclusive that Floyd was hampered enough for the actual fight not to be even considered.

 

I'd say that most people took the first fight into consideration. If you ignore it and only go with the second fight, in which a 37 year old Patterson was doing well in until getting cut, you could make a solid case that a prime for prime bout could be near even. Thus everyone had to have taken the first fight into account as no one here came close to picking Patterson, only said that he could present some problems.

Moore was absolutely ancient by then and deserves to get a pass. There hasn't been a near 50 year old light heavyweight who could beat the future number 1 heavyweight and never will be. Liston I thought was still good enough to beat any other fighter in the division, he just lacked the stamina to go beyond 6 rounds against a great fighter like Ali. I haven't seen any excuses made for Terrell except by Terrell himself.

 

Great perfomance by Ali. One of his most underrated. Thanks for the clip! You happpen to have the first 6 rds as well?

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq3a5_muhammad-ali-vs-floyd-patterson-i-p_sport