Very good or great? Volume 2: Ernesto Marcel

Marcel had great boxing skills but to compare Marcel to say Holmes is crazy.Look at Holmes body of work compared to Marcels???Its not even close.

 

Very lucky that Zarate beat the opposition he did beat then isn't it? :yep

 

You mean by pure stats (e.g. number of defences) or actual quality of fighters faced? In the former it might not even be close, in the latter, I say it is.

 

I'm not all to convinced about the quality of Zarate's opposition. I need to watch more.

 

Boxed Ears I disagree completely. The people who think Marcel is great have provided good reasons for his inclusion. The people who have said he is merely 'very good' have produced no explanation for it, who's word would you trust more? People who have set out their arguments or faceless one word answerers.

 

Let's take Carlos Zarate. You have some people claiming he fought a lot of taxi drivers, and then others who talk up his Bantamweight opposition to be something great. Batista put up a good fight, but his credentials before and after that fight would indicate that he was a no-hoper and not a noteworthy victory by any stretch of the imagination. Your response was, "Just watch him fight. You can tell he was good". I'm not disagreeing with you, but it really is that easy to talk up a professional fighter.

Eernesto Marcel might be a great fighter, I wouldn't honestly know.

 

I might have to take the mighty burden upon myself to educate the masses, by uploading his fights after i finish my Kalule uploads.Though at my speed that will be about a year from now.

The casual boxing fan needs to see these kind of fighters so they can continue an anti Duran/Leonard agenda armed with the requisite knowledge needed to twist things without having to visit boxrec and fumble blindly.

 

I never said Batista was great opposition, I just said he was a fairly good fighter, not a taxi-driver as some people mention. He is just a good win IMO, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not merely talking up Marcel though, I (among others) have provided good evidence on why he should be a great, and there has been very little evidence to warrent anyone disagreeing with me and the others. If someone would post why they do not think he is great, I would be very happy.

 

Ok-Im game for this-it will be fun.

Larry Holmes Quality wins:Roy Williams
Earnie Shavers TWICE
Ken Norton
Mike Weaver
Trevor Berbick
Bone Crusher Smith
Gerry Cooney
Tim Witherspoon
Carl Williams
Ray Mercer
Now I did not include Ali and Leon Spinks to be fair and I didn't include some "unbeaten" boxers that Holmes beat.

Now list me the top ten VICTORIES of Marcel.

 

Right, Marcel fought some good fighters and a lot of guys we really have little idea on how good they are, but we can see how good Holmes opponents are, as there is plenty of footage, this is a big plus for Holmes IMO, and leads to uncertainty in marcel's record.

I will try to list his best wins, but maybe some like like lora or S_S will have a better idea than me. In no order.

Alfredo Marcanox2
Kuniaki Shibata (was scored a DRAW but if you have seen it, there is no way thats a draw.)
Antonio Gomez x2
Sam Serrano
Alexis Arguello

There is a few more wins like 'Spider' Nemoto, but I really have no idea how good these guys were.

OK, Marcel's resume is fairly shallow in terms of depth but he makes up for it in quality IMO. Arguello is obviously the name that stands out, although he was young he still was very much a superb fighter. Marcano, Shibata, Serrano and Gomez were all quality champions who made a good few defences and defeated other top men.

Compare these guys to say the top 5 of Holmes opponents and what do you think? How do these guys compare?

Holmes definitly beats Marcel for depth but Marcel IMO has the edge in quality. I wouldn't, necassarily, rank Marcel above Holmes myself but I can see why he could be.

(thanks for replying, about time we got some debate in here)

 

Bernardo Caraballo is another top contender that Marcel beat. Riasco and Bolanos were certainly on the level of a Roy Williams, who was no more than a sparring partner/journeyman, never a true contender in the division.

 

imo your average late 60s early 70s featherweight/junior lightweight contender is of a higher quality than the average heavyweight was in holmes time.What that really means is up for debate i suppose.