1952 Rocky Marciano vs 1960 Cleveland Williams

Sam Silverman ,who promoted a few of Marciano's fights ,said Rocky would struggle as hard with second raters as with top contenders.

 

rocky by KO.

 

"he was highly regarded at the time"

I don't remember him being all that highly regarded. The yearbooks would discuss the top men--Patterson, Liston, Johansson, Moore, a rising Clay, then the "policeman" types, Machen and Folley, and then the also-rans. I remember Williams as always being among the also rans-Henry Cooper, Bob Cleroux, Mike DeJohn, etc

 

Mauriello is somewhat of an enigma himself. But your argument is circular. Mauriello was the #1 contender going into the ring--between 1945 and 1948 his only losses were to the champions Louis and Lesnevich, and the one to Shkor. The first loss to Lesnevich was a close fight. The Mauriello win might be judged to prove Shkor was somewhat more dangerous than his spotty record indicates.

Chuck Wepner seems to be a pretty good comp for Shkor. Two big, rough, dirty heavyweights. Shklor appears to me to have been slightly better on balance.

By the way, I don't see the argument that Marciano struggled with Shkor, off what I have read. He won the first three rounds, drew the fourth, and slaughtered Shkor in the fifth and sixth. His only problem was a cut apparently caused by a flagrant butt, a not unusual tactic by Shkor. Shkor was at least decently durable--he was never stopped by a man who was not top ten at one time or another--being stopped a total of four times in 53 fights, including the one by Marciano.

 

"Big Cat" Williams gets a lotta' **** dumped on him from all angles... If you listen to many posters, you'd think Williams was a bum or a stiff... He was NOT! Sure he had flaws, but who doesn't.?.?

I think them two KO losses to Sonny Liston in 1959 and 1960 hurt his reputation... But there is no shame getting parked by a prime Sonny Liston...

The fact that Williams was shot at point blank range by the Pigs in Texas with a .357 magnum and lived in 1964 shows us just how tuff that dude was...

Cleve Williams lacked finess and some skills, but he had heart, soul, power and conditioning to compete with some great dude's of the ring...

Williams was smoked by Ali in '66, but Ali was peaked; Williams was age 33 and was on the comeback trail... But Williams rebounded and fought on for another six years and won as well as lost some good fights....

Not a bum.... NO!

MR.BILL

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1079257/index.htm

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...J&pg=1080,1003945&dq=cleveland+williams&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAIBAJ&dq=cleveland williams&pg=6639,2888403

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...5,3019292&dq=cleveland+williams+johnson&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...J&pg=3015,2118783&dq=cleveland+williams&hl=en

"In a way he's tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen

Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Sonny Liston
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Ernie Terrell
4. Cleveland Williams

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...047,68226&dq=cleveland+williams+daniels&hl=en

 

thankyou, thats the way I see it. there is no doubt his fights with liston were great entertainment but I feel the "big cat's" aura grew out of the second coming of the liston legend that exploded during the tyson era. there has been a fetish for big bad intimidating heavyweights in boxing history and it has snow balled ever since.

 

Fair enough. But I didn't say no one had anything good to say about Williams. I said he was not that highly regarded on the whole. He was not rated in the Ring magazine ratings prior to 1961 when he was rated #7. He was #6 in 1962, and then #4 in 1963 and 1964, his peak ratings.

Billy Daniels twice went 10 rounds with Williams. In between these two fights, Daniels was ko'd in three rounds by the less than awesome punching Karl Mildenberger. About a year after the second Williams fight, Daniels was ko'd in 1 round by Oscar Bonavena. Daniels was not all that durable, being stopped 7 times in his career, several times in the first round, but he still went the distance with Williams twice.

Williams might have pushed up to a fight with Ali if he hadn't been shot. I myself can't see him winning it. It should be pointed out though that he was pushing 32 and his best days might have been behind him anyway, a possibility hinted at by the two fights with Daniels.

 

haha, mrbill seems to be quite aroused on the subject...

I just think theres a point that those that remember the time were less carried away with wiliams than those that picked up the story after the event.

 

wilaims was a good contender. years later, after oficiating as ref for tyson fights arthur mercante always remembered cleveland willaims as one of the hardest punchers he ever witnesed, so no doubt the cat was a legit puncher. I think he was a dangerous character but just a good contender like all the other guys old fogey named.
my point is wiliams was in 2 short but exciting fights against liston. tami mauriello was in an exciting and shorter fight with joe louis. but nobody got excited about mauriello later on.

 

Williams is too big and a product of evolutionary progression.

 

Marciano would **** up Liston, Bowe, Lewis, Williams, and the Klitschko brothers in the same week because his heart is too big and everyone would just wilt under his relentless pressure.