Where is Wlad on the ATG heavyweight list right now?

Right on the money. Great post:good

 

Really?!?!? You're shitting on Jack Johnson to try and build up Wlad?!?!? You really need to learn your boxing history (and history in general) if you want to have these discussions, and I don't mean from boxrec and wikipedia.

 

I appreciate your opinion but I don't agree for the following reasons.

Wlad does not 'toy' with his opponents. He hides from them. Not in a defensive, counter puncher way but in a plese don't hit me kind of way. This I don't see as an ATG attribute.

Wlad does not use his full skill set and instead chooses to lean, clinch, paw and wait for his opponents to gas. He can only do this because his opposition is so poor. Not an ATG attribute.

Wlad has never had a single marquee win against top oppostition. He has no Schmelling or Conn to balance out the bums he beat. Not an ATG attribute.

Wlad has lost very badly 3 times to 3 fighters who were never respected themselves, let alone great. 2 of those losses are unavenged. Not an ATG attribute.

Wlad has arguably priced himself out of 'easy' unification bouts with Haye and Valuev and instead opted to rematch poor and well beaten opposition. Not an ATG attribute.

I rate an ATG based on skills, style, resume and performance level. Wlad is not top 20 in any of those categories in my opinion.

 

Are you freakin serious? This is the worst argument of yours. atsch

 

Here's what I see as key point. Not every era has to have an ATG at every weight. Wlad is definitely the best HW since Vitali's first retirement but that doesn't make him better than great fighters of the past.

When Lewis retired in 2003. Wlad had fought 43 times. He turned pro as Olympic Champ in '96. Had he not padded his record and then lost so badly to poor opposition he may have been able to fight his ATG peers. His name was never even in the conversation for good reason.

Holyfield beat Qwai after 12 and beat Buster Douglas at HW after 25. That is what an ATG does.

Tyson and Lewis both had similar paths.

 

That's why I said arguably. Read the whole post please.

 

Yeah of course. One of the top 30 best heavyweights probably.

But lets face it, once you get past the top ten does anyone really care?

Can you really start calling them ATGs?

If you want to extend the list far enough then Im an all time great!

 

Ok, fair enough. I just thought that you were hating by not even including him in the top 100. :good

 

Lets see:think
Wlad was beating many bums in his early career. True. However every fighter does that. Thats called learning curve. He stepped up the competition quite a bit by fighting prospects like him: Barrett, McCline, Jefferson then fighting some journeyman-or fringe contenders in Botha, Shufford, then stept up by fighting some pretty good contenders/titlist: Byrd, Mercer. After the McCline fight there were talks that he is next in line for Lewis, the TOP dog, who was saying that Wlad isnt ready yet. also had rumors that he might fight Tyson. Sanders fight happened. He lost everything, his status, his popularity. No one wants to fight a "hype job", thats what people called him right after that.
So in 4 years he won a belt from Byrd, got in line for Lewis fight and Tyson fight. He was considered the next challenger for them. Thats hardly ducking. Thats like saying that if Adamek lost to Grant and ended up not fighting a Klitschko that he is ducking.
I hope i made my points clear:good

 

But you said that which means you believe that he ducked them both, Haye, Valuev.
And its not even arguable

 

Vlad and Vitali are cleaning out the heavyweight division.

 

Donovan Ruddock would have probably defeated every opponent Wladimir has faced in his career.

 

Maybe, maybe not.
Chagaev beats him, Peter has a chin and power, Ruddock has power no chin as seen in Lewis fight, so its debatable. Ibragimov beats him. Dont know about the rest. Oh, and Byrd beats him also.

 

atsch

If Wladimir had a couple of come-back-from-way-behind-on-points-and-needing-a-KO-to-win stoppage victories over 188 pound guys, that would get him more respect from you?

If Chad Dawson moved up to challenge Wlad, was winning a wide points decision and then ran into a KO punch in round 12, you would give Wlad credit for that?

:rofl:rofl:rofl

Sure, sure. :good

:hat

 

To say Ruddock had no chin is be completely and utterly clueless. You don't go 18-19 rounds with Mike Tyson if you don't have a chin. Smarten up. You don't get up before the count of 8 from a flush Morrison left hook if you don't have a chin. Ruddock could take shots, he could go down, but he'd always get up. The Lewis fight was post-Tyson II, and I think that fight really took a lot out of Ruddock, he was brutalized to body and head during that bout.

Dononvan would have trouble with Byrd, but I favor him to catch up late in the fight. I think he beats Chagaev, and he certainly beats the Peter that showed up the other night. This is to say Wladimir has been fighting less than stellar opposition, and although that isn't his fault, it's still a fact.