Greb vs Louis. What type of chance does Greb have?

Conn "wasn't as durable as Greb."

What is this conclusion based on? Except for an early defeat on a cut, Conn was only stopped by Louis. Greb never fought anyone remotely in Louis' class as a puncher, other than Dempsey in short exhibitions. Lasting three rounds is quite a bit different from lasting fifteen.

 

This is about it. Louis would kill Greb to the body.

 

Not much of a chance.

 

Louis wasn't going to time Greb when the super analytical and fast Tunney couldn't. Also, Joe beat many of his opponents before they even entered the ring. Nobody intimidated Harry.

I think we can extrapolate something of how Greb fought by the post prime footage of him sparring and playing handball with Jack O'Brien. We see him continually bouncing on his toes, moving in and under, then back out. The analogy that fighting him was like having a box of gloves dumped on you is much in evidence on the extant film.

Conn tried to knock Joe out. Harry would never consider attempting this. He would do what he did best, and Louis would be the one needing to adapt. The Bomber was a supreme paragon of orthodoxy, just as Tunney, Loughran and the Gibbons boys were. Not true for his proposed opponent here. I'm talking about the really scary Greb of 1919, with good vision who was routinely thrashing Bill Brennan, Miske, Bat Levinski, Gunboat and the brothers Gibbons, the one who took 17 of 20 rounds in handing Ratner his first official defeat. (He was already on the brink of 28 when he beat Tunney, and maybe already past his best, a frightening notion.)

Greb never tried Langford, Fulton or Wills, and seems to have set himself a limit in terms of the firepower he would compete against. But Bill Brennan did have 48 knockout wins in 51 official outcomes (hence the nickname KO Bill), yet Harry thrashed him four times in 1919. Miske could also be extremely dangerous. (As for Tommy Gibbons, we've seen on film what he did to Norfolk and Bloomfield. The man could hit!) When hurt, Greb was a past master at tying up and neutralizing an opponent. Walker was a deadly finisher, and did stun Harry, but couldn't follow through. He wouldn't freeze when Joe staggered him.

Everybody tested his body. He was used to it. He won anyway.

Louis is clearly a level well above anybody Greb ever competed against, but it may be a mistake to reflexively concede Joe a blowout win.

 

its way to subjective.. greb is too under filmed

 

+1

 

I don't like fantasy match-ups where you haven't even seen one of the fighters fight. What makes this a bit interesting, though, is that Dempsey seemed wary of Greb. Dempsey also ate up all that came to him, but him and his people still obviously didn't see Greb as an ideal stylistical match-up. And they actually saw him fight.

 

Good post.

 

Its amazing how many people spout off about Greb and seem to know absolutely nothing but what they read in Ring magazine (which is pretty far from the facts on Greb). Id give Greb a shot against any fighter in history below 6 foot 2 and 200 lbs or lighter. So I would definately give Greb a chance. I would favor Louis based only on his size and punching power but I will say this: Greb was absolutely incredible at analyzing his opponents and coming up with a gameplan to beat them. If he could see Louis fight before he actually had to fight him I would give him no worse than a 50/50 shot to beat Louis. And dont get me wrong, I rate Louis no lower than three in top HWs of all time and maybe even 2 next to Ali. He was the perfect textbook HW ever and could punch his ass off. Where Greb would cause problems for Louis is foot speed. Someone on here said Greb wasnt as fast as Billy Conn, not so according to pretty much everyone who saw them both. Greb had legendary foot speed and his legs were often compared to steel springs because they never tired. Furthermore Greb was not the one dimensional crowding slugger some people claim. He danced around and then would leap in with vollies of punches and either dance back out or tie his man up on the inside. Louis needed to be set to punch and Greb loved guys like this. Greb also had the discipline to stick to a gameplan and fight 15 or 20 rounds without deviating as he did against Tommy Gibbons who was a hellacious body puncher. He knew what he had to do to beat Gibbons and he executed that plan to a T. Anyone who gives Greb zero chance would be falling into the same trap that so many of his contemporaries did. People bet against Greb for years because he was too small, or had a crazy style. They invariably ended up losing that bet and it wasnt until he was past his prime and nearing the end of his career that he really started gaining a modicum of the respect really deserved. Even then few really understand just how talented Greb was because he fought so many fights all over the country that you could not easily examine his full body of work.

 

It would be a tall order for a 165 pound Harry Greb to fight a great 200 pound Joe Louis...but dont sell Harry Greb short [no pun intended].
He was lightning in a bottle, with tremendous foot speed that would be able to get Greb out of danger instantly if required...He and his mgr would
be well aware of Louis's tremendous power, and have Harry flying in and
out with great handspeed flurries and scooting away from Louis's
counters...Greb could do this [at his best] for 15 rounds, and as credited
finishing as strong in the last round...Remember, no writer from pittsburgh
who I read ever COMPARED Billy Conn to Harry Greb..None...
Having said this I can not pick a winner, as they are two of my all time favorite fighters...
But just to have a fantasy fight between a 165 middleweight, against
the great lethal joe Louis, speaks volumes for Lil Old Harry, methinks...
P.S. I agree with you on Tommy Gibbons powerful punching against
Jack Bloomfield of England which i saw on youtube awhile back..
Tommy Gibbons was more than a great boxer..HeCan Hit...

 

We havent seem Greb so therefore cant comment

 

None and none

 

1. Greb was obviously great, but Billy Conn is being sold a trifle short on this thread.

2. "No one . . . ever COMPARED Billy Conn to Harry Greb."

Ring Magazine, October 1937, profile of Billy Conn

"The most skeptical of critics have been won over. They are unanimous in stating that Conn will be the Smoky City's fifth world's champion in the middleweight division, a fighter who is more than likely to be even greater than the other four men who wore the 160 lb toga--Frank Klaus, George Chip, Harry Greb and Teddy Yarosz."

3. Conn lost several fights when he was sixteen and seventeen, but once he reached his eighteenth birthday, he lost only to champions. Young Corbett III, an experienced southpaw whom Conn beat in a return. Solly Krieger whom Conn defeated twice in returns. Both these losses came when Billy was 19. At 20 he lost to Teddy Yarosz, whom he had beaten twice earlier.

These fights were at at or near the middleweight limit with rated middleweights.

At 20 Conn moved up to the lightheavyweight and heavyweight classes. His only loss at either of these classes was to Joe Louis. In other words, he only lost to champions after he turned 18, and he lost only to Joe Louis above the middleweight division. Apparently growing rapidly now, he beat the two best lightheavies in the world twice each, and then moved into the heavyweight division, knocking out probably the second best heavyweight in the world, Bob Pastor, and beating several other name heavyweights. At 23 he gives Joe Louis a fierce fight. I have seen plenty of quotes from Louis that Conn was the best he ever fought, as the others who gave him trouble got him too young or too old.

4. Greb fought so often it is perhaps unfair to even critique him, but I would say he lost to lesser fighters than Conn did after Conn was more than 17--Soldier Bartfield, for example. Mike O'Dowd bettered him. Tommy Gibbons split four fights with him. He never clearly beat Kid Norfolk. Tunney ended up getting the best of him in the official decisions. Of fighters he fought who weighed above 175 when he fought them, Brennan was probably the best, and I don't see Brennan as an equal to Pastor, let alone Louis. Greb did not fight the best heavies of his time--Dempsey, Wills, Langford. Conn did fight Louis and Pastor.

5. Conn was almost as tall as Louis, 6' 1 1/2". Greb was 5' 8". Greb probably was at his best around 165 lbs. He made the middleweight limit as late as his last fight. Conn outgrew the middleweight division at 20. He seemed to be struggling to make 175 by the time he fought Louis. The bottom line here is that Conn was a naturally bigger man. Greb might have been p4p the better man, but Conn had the size to match up with a big heavy such as Louis. What Conn might have done if WWII hadn't intervened is difficult to judge.

 

"Everybody tested his body"

And some beat him doing it, and which of these men punched remotely as hard as Louis?