Greb vs Louis. What type of chance does Greb have?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Jun 27, 2009.


  1. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Apropo, of the 1937 article of the Ring you quote.that Conn is "likely to
    make Conn Pittsburgh's best Fighter"...This was written by a boxing
    contributor of the Ring, and remember the old adage,"one swallow doesn't
    make a spring"..It certainly wasn't Nat Fleischers opinion who always rated Harry Greb in the top three alltime bracket...Not so with Conn...I repeat,
    how great Conn was rated by Pittsburgh writers of the time, Greb was
    rated HIGHER,irregardless of height...
     
  2. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1. Nat Fleischer--But how seriously must I take someone who had Battling Levinsky #6 and Georges Carpentier #7 at lightheavyweight, with neither Billy Conn nor Archie Moore even making the top ten.

    2. In 1978, The Boxing writers of American rated Moore the #1 lightheavy with Conn at #2. I consider this more worthwhile than any one man's opinion.

    3. Greb was obviously a better middleweight, his natural weight, a division Conn outgrew at 20. That he was a better lightheavy or heavy is a shot in the dark, as Conn only lost to Louis at those weights.
     
  3. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    OF,let me make this clear..Billy Conn was a great fighter in my eyes.
    No doubt....
    But would you really compare the light heavies and heavies that Billy Conn
    defeated, such as-
    Melio Bettina
    Gus Lesnevich
    bob Pastor
    gunnar Barlund
    With a list of light heavies and heavies,that Harry Greb, yes 5ft8",beat
    many times, such as-
    Tommy gibbons-HOF
    Tommy Loughran-HOF
    Jack Dillon-HOF
    GENE TUNNEY-HOF
    Battling Levinsky-HOF
    Maxie Rosenbloom-HOF
    Gunboat Smith-Hard puncher, kod Sam Langford
    Billy Miske-A top 183 pound fighting heavyweight
    Bill Brennan -a big hard punching heavyweight 200 lbs[4 times].
    Charlie Weinert-contender
    Billy Conn had 76 fights when he retired at 31 years old...
    Harry Greb had Three Hundred fights when he retired at age 32...
    Harry Greb clearly was the better fighter as his amazing record clearly shows...He had FOUR times the amount of fights against better big men
    except for Joe Louis of course...
    So why in tarnation if Billy almost licked Joe Louis in 1941, would a faster
    and better Harry Greb, with a great chin to boot, not give Joe Louis
    as much or more hell than Billy Conn did in 1941 ? Keep punching..b.b.
     
  4. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    And as of this year, Miske is also HOF.
    Jimmy Slattery-HOF
    Tiger Flowers-HOF (Greb beat him the first time they met.)
    Mike Gibbons-HOF
    The 6'3" 189 pound Martin Burke (Harry shut out the tall,
    decorated former AAU amateur champion. Burke promptly
    rebounded by beating Fulton, Risko, Floyd Johnson, and
    later Larry Gains.)
     
  5. klompton

    klompton Boxing Addict banned

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    It is also debatable whether ODowd bested Greb. Lets keep several things in mind about that fight. ODowd was fighting in his hometown and the newspapers were hometown newspapers. Of those papers 3 voted for O'Dowd, 2 voted for Greb and 1 had it a draw but stated that if he had to pick a winner he would pick Greb. One of those who voted for Greb was George Barton who was one of the most respected men in boxing for over 50 years. Lets also keep in mind that Greb couldnt prepare like he wanted to in order to make weight so he spent the night before the fight in a turkish bath and actually lost 3 more pounds than he intended coming in at 155. A good ten pounds lower than his best fighting weight and the lowest he would weigh for the rest of his career. Furthermore Greb continually tried to get a rematch with ODowd either in Pittsburgh or on home turf after that, particularly after ODowds service in the war and ODowd always priced himself out of the rematch.

    In regards to the quote comparing Conn to Greb it said "is likely to" meaning he hadnt achieved what Greb had achieved yet.

    Lets also not forget, while we are nitpicking, that Conn barely beat Bettina (who was a heck of a fighter in his own right) and some felt he lost that fight.

    Conn himself would have defended Greb as strenuously as anyone on here. He idolized Greb so much that he had his mother buried as close to Greb as possible.
     
  6. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No disrespect to the Human Windmill,but Harry would have two chances. And Slim would have left town ages before the first bell !
     
  7. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Klompton,Yes I have heard about Billy Conn's mother idolizing her hometown hero ,Harry Greb..
    As well as the great dancer from Pittsburgh Gene Kelly, who greatly admired Greb also....
     
  8. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And vice versa !
     
  9. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Not to nitpick on a terrific post but Gunboat never KO'd Langford. He won a decision and was flattened in a rematch ..
     
  10. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And having Debbie Reynolds and a soaking wet movie set in his corner would n't help Greb against Louis ! :D
     
  11. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    he,Thank you for correcting me..Of course I meant Fred Fulton ,who stopped Sam Langford,and not Gunboat Smith...Apology...
     
  12. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It would help Harry's libido....
     
  13. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1. Fair enough. There is no doubt that Greb's resume is MUCH deeper than Conn's, although Conn's is rather impressive for a fighter with a truncated career.

    2. The Conn fought to 31 argument is not very good, in my judgement. He had only three fights after 1942 (when he was 24) and only Louis was a serious opponent. I have read that Conn never worked after his retirement, having invested well. He was rich.

    3. Conn was the better fighter up to 24, but his career more or less ended at that point with WWII.

    4. I repeat that Conn lost only to Joe Louis of anyone he fought over 165 lbs and lost only to champions after he reached 18.

    5. The list of big men you list is mainly lightheavies. Tunney was a lightheavy when Greb fought him and also won their series. Gibbons was a lightheavy and split with Greb. Loughran weighed in the 160's when he fought Greb. Rosenbloom and Slattery were close to the middleweight limit. Levinsky was a light-punching lightheavy.

    6. Norfolk is an interesting test here. He defeated Miske twice and knocked out Tiger Flowers twice. Cyberboxing gives him credit for beating Greb twice. But big Harry Wills blasted him out in two. So did an aging Sam Langford. Big, heavy punching heavies are a different kettle of fish.

    7. The men Greb fought who were real heavies--Brennan, Roper, Burke, Weinert, Gunboat Smith--were simply not the top men at the time he fought them. He did not fight Dempsey, Wills, or Langford. Joe Louis and Bob Pastor were arguably the top two heavies out there when Conn fought them.

    8. As I said earlier, it is perhaps unfair to critique Greb as he fought so often with only a few days rest, but compared to Conn he had some hard to explain sub-par performances. He drew with Ted Jamison. He drew twice with Chuck Wiggins. He lost to Soldier Bartfield.
     
  14. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1. Conn would have defended Greb---Who's attacking him? I have said that I think Greb is better p4p than Conn, and I think Conn was great. The issue, though, when it comes to matching with Joe Louis, is was Greb as good at heavyweight as Conn? I think not.

    2. "Conn barely beat Bettina"

    He won two unanimous decisions. And the NY Times, at least, agreed:

    1st Bettina fight--"The Smoky City boxer, facing the titleholder, Melio Bettina, of Beacon, NY, in a fifteen round fight in Madison Square Garden, fashioned a decisive triumph over his Hudson Valley rival."

    2nd Bettina fight--"Fighting as a champion should, throwing caution to the winds and wading right into a more rugged, though cumbersome foe, Conn won the decision of Referee Red Robinson and judges Chick Rogers and Johnny Fundey in a manner that left no room for doubt as to his superiority in the fifteen round engagement."

    I suppose somebody, somewhere, had Bettina winning, but this if the first time I have heard anyone claim either of these decisions was controversial.

    I would point out that these were official unanimous decisions, not newspaper "victories" which may depend on careful selection of newspapers and possible biased reporting.

    3. "he hadn't achieved what Greb had"

    At 19? But he achieved a lot more at 19 than Greb had at a similar age, and he achieved a lot more to 24 than Greb did to a similar age.

    4. The reference to the Bettina fights points up one difference between the two. Conn fought in an era of official decisons. You either won, lost, or drew. Greb fought in the no decision era. It is hard to estimate the difference this could make in a fight. For example, Greb "beat" Battling Levinsky six times, but Levinsky was the champion going in and still the champion coming out. Did he give a do or die effort to defeat Greb, or did he just fight to safely last to the final bell, knowing that was all that was necessary to keep his title and keep the paydays coming.
     
  15. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    With a schedule like Harry's, I'm absolutely more than happy to cut him some slack for off days and hot and cold performances. But that he, like Britton, simply did not get punched into submission after passing the novice stage is mind boggling.