B, I'm afraid I can't answer when Robby first got rated by Fleischer at welterweight, as I've never had a Ring Record Book which predates the 1957 edition. (Burt? JohnGarfield? Henry Hascup?) I can however tell you that Eddie McGoorty was his number ten all time middleweight as of 1957, and that McGoorty was dropped when Fleischer inserted Robinson directly from the welterweight ranks into fifth place on the middleweight ledger. (Nat simply replaced Robby with Dixie Kid as his number five welterweight when he made this change, as you know.) You'd know better than I what deletions he made, if any, from any of his annual all time top ten listings after McGoorty.
Thanks - very interesting! I would never have guessed, that McGoorty had been on Fleischer's list! Also strange that he simply replaced SRR with Dixie Kid in 5th spot at welter. Wouldn't the logical thing to do, be to have moved everybody below SRR up one notch - and then put Kid in at No. 10??
Stats made Reagan's eyes glaze over too, in that first 1984 debate with Mondale, when his handlers drilled the specifics into him. Following that disaster, they decided to "let Reagan be Reagan," he relaxed, and the next one went fine. Don't worry about the stats. Your first hand narratives more than make up for it. I just thought you might be a candidate for having a collection of older Ring Record Books. (Ditto Henry and Burt.)
D,I have before me Nat fleischer's "Fifty Years At Ringside", which was first published in 1940, and reprinted in 1969..Nat Fleischer died in 1972. In the book [updated 1969],whenRobinson retired 4 years earlier in 1965, fighting as a middlewight [147 and up],since about 1951, he listed Robbie as a middleweight, in his alltime middleweights as follows--- 1 Stanley Ketchel 2 Tommy Ryan 3 Harry Greb 4 Mickey Walker 5 Ray robinson 6 Frank Klaus 7 Billy Papke 8 Les Darcy 9 Mike Gibbons 10 Jeff Smith I would assume Fleischer at that time [1969],considered Ray Robinson in the middleweight division. Years before ,when Robinson was Welterweight champion, he had this list of welterweights-- 1 Joe Walcott 2 Mysterious billy Smith 3 Jack Britton 4 Ray Robinson Fleischer was born in 1887,in N.Y.,saw his first pro fight in 1899 when a family friend took Nat, age 12 to see Terry McGovern fight Peddlar Palmer from England in Tuckahoe, N.Y., and he was "hooked" on boxing...He boxed amateur later on but took a beating from a neighberhood boxer' later knoiwn as Leach Cross...Hope that helps somewhat...b.b.
Nat may have just gotten a little lazy, and was probably a very, very busy man at that stage, already into his 70s. Yes, that McGoorty was in his top ten list prior to Robinson is very intriguing, and I think therefore has historical significance. In the 50 Greatest Fighters from 50 States thread that Rumsfeld created a couple years ago, McGoorty was selected as Wisconsin's representative. (ESPN selected Richie Mitchell, and listed McGoorty for honorable mention. Mitchell over McGoorty? Do you buy that?)
Thanks, Burt. "50 Years at Ringside" is in my library as well, but currently stored away, while my 1957 Ring Record Book is beside me as I type. My edition of "50 Years at Ringside" was published in 1958. I inherited both when my father's best friend passed away in 2002.
My edition is also from 1958 - and I've just read the part Burt mentions where Cross beats the crap out of Fleischer! Haven't opened this book in like 40 years... but I must re-read it one day.
Relieved! D. Thought at first you were tip-toeing around dementia (which my wife's been claiming for years)
No way dude :nono Your all mixed up here. Hurtado had a damn good punch especially at Jw. And i dont know what makes you think he had a good chin, thats what he needs here. If he had a chin he would have beat Whittaker(elite all time great) and Tszyu(borderline Great) and never loss to Vivian Harris hed be a shoe in for the IBHOF if he had won those fights,but since his chin was on the soft side he will never even come close to being considered. No problems with his power just his chin