greater Middleweight, Greb or SRR?

His best wins at MW is against Lamotta x 5, Olsen (x 3?), Fulmer, Basilio and Graziano. Add to this all the wins against lesser opponents and friinge contenders.

His losses are to LaMotta, Turpin, Jones, Fulmer, Basilio and a bunch at the tail end of his career.

Considering all but two of the losses came when was quite a distance from his prime I think this is a very strong record.

 

how much weight does robbie have to give away to greb ??

 

Some of you guys are funny, there is no video evidence of Greb in an actuial fight.

Also he fought his fights when the good old newspaper decsions were in use, therefore these were not peroper judges merely journalist who they would/could favour for large bets and politcal influences.

Absolutely insane.

 

Sanchez is right. When comparing two fighters 'greatness' in a particular division, their whole body of work at that weight has to be considered. He is not saying that MW Robinson or Robinson himself is "less" because he lost to Pender. He is factoring it in with caveats -his age, mileage and such. Greb had some great wins while blind in one eye. That too should be factored in, as his some of his earlier losses.

Again, the whole body of work should be considered. Look at it from another angle. Had Louis KO'd Marciano, he'd be even greater than he is. Had Meldrick said "I'm okay" to Richard Steele, and then beat Chavez again in a rematch, he'd be considered greater than he currently is. Had Ambers stopped Armstrong, there wouldn't be threads lamenting his being forgotten. Had Leonard whipped Norris, had Hagler whipped Leonard, had Ali whipped Holmes, had Holmes whipped Tyson, Had Duran never quit, and on it goes. We have to be honest about the great ones -but that doesn't mean some facts aren't mitigated by circumstances.

Head-to-head is usually prime for prime, but looking at a career cannot be done with one eye blind. Pardon the pun. Otherwise, the whole exercise lurches into nonsense.

..............
On Thursday, I was training an aspiring featherweight. He's learning about the all-time greats at the same time that he's learning fundamentals -so he knows the names. I got to talking about Robinson because these guy's combinations are very fast, very hard, and he understands how to set up the sleeper shots. I said that he has a chance to be great like Robinson someday. He said, "or like Greb." I said, "No. No one has a chance to be like Greb. He's out of reach completely."

................
I used to be a wise guy like some new posters on ESB Classic and would chirp "no film, no comment" when Greb questions came up. And then I had an epiphany and saw that I was all wrong. If such chirpings have any weight, then history as a field should be abolished.

 

Greb by UD at MW resume

 

But there are vids of his opponents which he beat.

 

You're talking as if Greb did all those things, he never fought beyond the age of 32 unlike many of the other men you're quoting. Yes he was blind in 1 eye and he had allot of fights, we'll never know how much that detracted from him as a fighter however. Frazier fought blind in 1 eye too, is he the greatest of the HWs?

 

I have no opinion in a H2H. No footage of Greb for me to compare their styles. Whose greater? I still can't say because of no footage. I would love to see Greb and Tiger Flowers but there's no footage.

 

I'm not very good at Greb. What are his best wins at MW, you'd say?

 

I think Robinson's perfomance against LaMotta was great, but not as one of kind as many others here sees it. I have a couple I'd probably have ahead of it.

It was quite an even fight before LaMotta ran out of steam. He himself says it was the weightdrain that did it, and even though one always should be very sceptical of a fighter's excuses, it is a well known fact that LaMottta had trouble keeping weight.

 

To all the naysayers of Harry Greb, some points to make...
I have seen the great ray Robinsoin in his VERY PRIME several times.
2 He was the greatest fighter I have ever seen, by far.
3 My father who saw Harry Greb absolutely murder Gene Tunney in their
first fight in 1922 MSG and saw Robinson in his prime with me,always
insisted that Greb was too rough and tough for Robinson,for what it's
worth..
4 The great heavier fighters that Harry Greb defeated,numerous times,
such as Gene tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, Jack Dillon,
Tommy loughran, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Big Bill Brennan etc,
Ray Robinson would have certainly avoided tackling, as shown by his
not fighting Charles, Moore, Marshall,Harold Johnson, in Ray's time..
Ray Robinson knew his limitations, better than we...
5 Harry Greb had no limitations...Even when half blind and weary from
300 bouts...
6 Therefore i am convinced by what I have read about Greb and his
amazing record, that Greb would have positevly whipped all of the
opponents of Ray Robinson, and most certainly Robinson would never
beaten the roster of great HOF heavier fighters that Harry Greb
astonishlingy beat...Alkmost all the writers who saw both Greb and
Robinson in his middleweight era,picked Harry Greb over Ray Robinson
were they to have met...
7 And so do I...

 

4. Ray was never even really in the same division as Charles/Moore/Marshall/Johnson. And as a matter of fact Moore walked out of negotiations with Robinson for a LHW title fight, not the other way round

6. Greb couldn't whip all the best opponents of his own time half of the time so its unlikely he does it in Robinsons time. He lost and drew with a WW depite having a 15-20lb weight advantage after all

7. I doubt that

 

In reviewing their match for Curt Gowdy's "The Way it Was" sports retrospective in the 1970s, Robby came right out and said, with Jake at his side, that his strategy for victory was predicated on the expectation that LaMotta would indeed be weight drained. Jake, for his part, far from denigrating Ray for this, asserted that Robinson was indeed the greatest fighter of all time.

Greb was obviously past prime for Walker, yet handled him so conclusively that even Mickey did not dispute the verdict. This match has huge ATG P4P ramifications, and a very strong argument can be made that this was the greatest single successful title defense in middleweight history. Robinson's only successful defenses were in his second reign, against former knockout victim Olson, and an end of the road Graziano.

By walking away after Maxim, Robinson cut short what could have been his only dominant reign at MW. Nobody would have likely dethroned him between 1952 and 1957 if he'd remained active. (Tiger Jones did beat him in the second fight of his 1955 comeback, but Jones would not have gotten a title shot off of five straight defeats.)