greater Middleweight, Greb or SRR?

Lamotta's pressure was pretty slow against Ray though.

That's why i take Reggie Johnson being robbed against Jorge Castro..

 

I think Greb was the better middleweight ... Robinson is slightly over rated at middleweight. Who was the best middleweight he ever defeated ?

Outstanding , no doubt. I'm not sure he's top five at middle ... Now welter and 154, the best ever at both ..

 

Ya know I tried to find Nat's top tens on line and couldn't, from what I remembered I thought he had Robby tops for welter and middle,,,,my mistake, thanks Burt.

 

Jones outclassed the fighter seen as p4p nr. 1. Hardly a round was really competitive. I doubt if that has been done before or after. In quality it's certainly comparable, even though it isn't tactically.

Young Clay made a very, very good HW champion - who at the time was seen as invincible - chase shadows. The perfomance (by no fault of Clay) is somewhat marred by Liston quitting, though. But the way he nullified the offence of the fighter (probably rightly) seen as the most destructive HW since Louis, definitely makes it comparable as well.

Another comparable back foot perfomance would be Douglas-Tyson. And Hopkins-Trinidad was largely a back foot perfomance. The size relation was the opposite in that one, though.

And if we just look at perfomances in general we also have Duran-Leonard I, Leonard-Benitez, Hearns-Duran, Louis-Schmeling II, Spinks-Tyson...

And there are probably more. I'm not saying that all these perfomances were better than SRR-LaMotta, or even as good, just that they're all in the discussion.

 

I saw the last Jake and Robinson bout different then most,,,,,I was impressed that with Jakes short arms he could walk in and catch Robby all night long with his jabs. Jake understood distance expertly having given up reach during most of his career, and it showed in how easily he walked in behind the jab. That said Robby was at his strongest in his career and when Jake ran out of gas all the guns were unloaded on him. This also gives me an idea of how a faster, more versatile, and unpredictable shorter arm Greb might have tagged Robby often also.

 

No. Was just a thought concerning that it was put forth as THE best perfomance ever by several. For me, no one perfomance really stands out like that.

 

So do you think Robinson's prime run is better than everything Greb achieved in his prime or Monzon in his? And including Greb's past prime runs?

 

Well when it comes to purely achievement alone you could put Greb, Hagler or Monzon ahead,

But when it comes to Hd 2 Hd Robinson's my number 1 and Hagler's number 2


But Robinson achievements are amazing, don't forget in only his first 3 years as a pro he'd already beaten an all time great middle in LaMotta, while weighing in under the welterweight limit, over 8 years before he even moved up to middle, thats just one example

 

I know SRR's achievements are amazing.

But he does not have the best Middleweight resume, you admit Greb, Monzon and Hagler have better.

So does Robinson do well enough H2H to justify you putting him in pole position? As surely Greb, Monzon and Hagler also score highly H2H? And if you do not rate Greb H2H surely that is a massive penalty that wrecks your whole list.

 

Yeah Robinson's my number 1 Hd 2 Hd, Haglers 2, Monzon 3 - 4,

Greb acievements are amazing he had to have been a great fighter so I don't dispute he rankings in overall resume and achievements,

But how can I know if he'd beaten Robinson, Hagler or Monzon Hd 2 Hd, I can't know without footage of how good he is at cutting of the ring, his jab, his speed etc, etc

you need footage when considering Hd 2 Hd, obviously so you can see his strenght and weaknesse's and how he would of approached the fight,

 

Well if you cannot rate him H2H surely your rankings are flawed as he misses out on one major set of criteria on your list.

Let's remove H2H from your list as it is purely hypothetical, would Ray still come out on top?

Also is Ray's H2H ranking significantly more than Haglers achievement ranking?

 

Their not flawed because I have never at anytime have ranked fighters on my list without footage, only time I do is in ratings based purely on achievements.