Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Addie, Sep 20, 2010.


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  1. Nicky P

    Nicky P Jamiva Boxing Full Member

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    I agree, he's an excellent fighter and a warrior. But not quite all time great.
     
    Nicky P, Sep 20, 2010
    Nicky P, Sep 20, 2010
    #16
  2. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    He's an ATG, avoided for years, his fans argue hes unbeaten in 17years from 126lb-135lbs (although Norwood certainly beat him imo), 3 weight champion fighting the best in each division, fighting tough contenders aswell as established champions. Now he's 37 and still lineal champion in his 3rd weight class

    Lets not forget only 2 years ago half of the fans rated him above Pacquaio
     
    PowerPuncher, Sep 20, 2010
    PowerPuncher, Sep 20, 2010
    #17
  3. Pachilles

    Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This talk of the word great being used too loosely is really silly. You can put a limit on the word "greatest" but i dont think you can on "great".
     
    Pachilles, Sep 20, 2010
    Pachilles, Sep 20, 2010
    #18
  4. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Marquez was the same age as MAB and Casa and past his prime himself. MAB was lineal SFW champ when JMM beat him, Casa was LW lineal champ when JMM KO'd him. Diaz was a top3 LW when JMM ko'd him. Now he's fighting a young bull in Katsidis, he'll beat him too despite being 37
     
    PowerPuncher, Sep 20, 2010
    PowerPuncher, Sep 20, 2010
    #19
  5. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    I knew someone would have to drag this out...everybody with a pulse and who has been watching the current scene knows that Marquez had a lot more left than Casa and Barrera did at that point. No real debate to be had. Marquez was naturally bigger than Marco, and carried the weight better too. First time I saw Marco look soft in the body when he fought Marquez. Not a terribly great win. Casamayor went life and death with one dimensional Katsidis and should have lost to Cruz. Good win, not a great one.

    I really didn't need to type that out.... :dead

    Struggling with the likes of Rocky Juarez. :dead

    Struggling with Katsidis, losing to Cruz. :dead

    Lost to Campbell, but a good win nonetheless. "Good" being the operative word.

    As I say, not really going to get in a big back and forth with you about this Power Puncher. You can tell me how old Barrera was as if I didn't already know and that he was champion at the time of the Marquez fight. You quote numbers and recite what can be read off Boxrec, and I'll go by what I know having watched the fights themselves. They were good wins, not great wins.
     
    Addie, Sep 20, 2010
    Addie, Sep 20, 2010
    #20
  6. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    You can do this with anyones record though Addie, its rare to find a fighter beating another great in their prime. I'm not saying Casa/MAB were prime, neither was JMM, did he have more left? YEs, well credit to him then. Its not his fault MAB and Morales ducked him when he was younger. Also both the Casa and MAB fights were his first fights in a new division

    As for watching fights I take you missed MAB-Juarez 2, that was a massive struggle wasnt it?

    Its not like his legacy is only reliant on them either, he beat Pac twice for my money. Also lets just ignore all the tricky featherweights he fought, while MAB/Morales were taking on the shot to pieces Kevin Kelly
     
    PowerPuncher, Sep 20, 2010
    PowerPuncher, Sep 20, 2010
    #21
  7. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    Okay, cool.

    Barrera and Morales have great wins on their resume, whereas Marquez has very good ones. There's the difference.
     
    Addie, Sep 20, 2010
    Addie, Sep 20, 2010
    #22
  8. MAG1965

    MAG1965 Loyal Member banned

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    I think he comes up way short of ATG. He benefited from fighting guys at the right time, and then he later fought guys who were not that great. When he did fight Mayweather he lost easily. He lost to John.
     
    MAG1965, Sep 20, 2010
    MAG1965, Sep 20, 2010
    #23
  9. yaca you

    yaca you Someone past surprise Full Member

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    hold that mayweather loss against him do you magi?
     
    yaca you, Sep 20, 2010
    yaca you, Sep 20, 2010
    #24
  10. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    All fought Pacquaio twice/3 times, who did better over a series? I don't even rate JMM above them, I'd say all are largely on par with each other
     
    PowerPuncher, Sep 20, 2010
    PowerPuncher, Sep 20, 2010
    #25
  11. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    Erik Morales actually defeated Pacquiao whereas the best Marquez managed was a draw. Is Pat Cowdell better than Wilfredo Gomez because he was more competitive in losing to Salvador Sanchez?

    Ultimately we will all have different criteria but what irritated me about your opening response was how you were omitting obvious facts. Technically you're correct, Marquez and Barrera are practically the same age, but what relevance does that have? We both know Barrera was far more removed from his prime than Marquez was, and thus the win is simply a good one as opposed to great. Likewise, we both know, the world knows, that Casamayor was significantly more faded than the Mexican and thus the win is just a good one, not a great one.

    I couldn't give a crap about what belts they held at the time of the defeats, that doesn't even begin to tell the full story and you surely know this.
     
    Addie, Sep 20, 2010
    Addie, Sep 20, 2010
    #26
  12. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Is Marlon Starling an ATG?

    Is Winky Wright an ATG?

    If JMM is, then they are too.
     
    sweet_scientist, Sep 20, 2010
    sweet_scientist, Sep 20, 2010
    #27
  13. Boro chris

    Boro chris Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Calzaghe should get some credit for the Hopkins win but not Jones.
    That was a clearly shot fighter by the time Joe got to him.

    Anyway. Marquez is an excellent fighter and a credit to the sport but he's never struck me as truly an atg.
     
    Boro chris, Sep 20, 2010
    Boro chris, Sep 20, 2010
    #28
  14. techks

    techks ATG list Killah! Full Member

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    Let me in this. I would consider all of the above ATGs but Floyd needs to step it up more to be considered one imo. I'll be harsh, it comes with being a purist lol. I have to agree with Godfather that having too many ATGs makes the word "all-time great" lose it's value.
     
    techks, Sep 20, 2010
    techks, Sep 20, 2010
    #29
  15. techks

    techks ATG list Killah! Full Member

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    To answer Addie, no as much as I like JMM I don't consider him an ATG. HOF bound? yes. An ATG? no. This topic of who's an ATG or not can go on and on and suggest things such as "Who did he beat to become great? Did he beat any great fighter in their prime? What's his best win" It all goes on to be a long discussion.
     
    techks, Sep 20, 2010
    techks, Sep 20, 2010
    #30
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