I think Haye's win over Enzo at the time may have been good/decent. Maybe Enzo wasn't what people made him but I won't discredit Haye.
Enzo has lost all his subtlety and nuance since Haye. He had a bit about him prior to that, now he looks like a crude banger who loads up every shot. Pre-Haye, Enzo would have dealt with Afolabi and Frenkel comfortably, not seen enough of Lebedev to judge. If he did make a mistake pre Haye, it was a career ending mistake.
I love how people seem to believe they are soooo clever with hindsight. At the time it was 'almost' a 50/50 fight; it was either Haye early or Enzo late. Simple as that. The Enzo that came into that fight at the O2 (think about it, it was a massive fight, anyone who is anyone was there FFS Holyfield was ringside!!) was completely different to the Enzo that lost to Lebedev and Frenkel.
Enzo never seemed to want to accept the loss; I was always worried that this reluctance, understandable though it was, would lead him to making the same mistakes in the future. And when that happened and he lost again, I thought that was it. He carried on, credit to him for that, but he never learned the right lessons from the Haye loss. Hell, when he lost to Lee Swaby it was the same technical problem.
I think the Haye loss ruined Enzo.He showed courage taking a fight with a naturally bigger guy.I hope he was well paid for it cos he was just never the same after.
how did Enzo's loss to Haye ruin him? He'd already had his clock cleaned by a domestic level fighter and didn't take any real beating by Haye. A couple heavy shots and his chin caved in, game over. No different from any of his other losses. Over the last couple years, Haye's win over Enzo has been proven beyond doubt to be nothing more that a standard win over a padded record weak-chinned domestic level fighter. Enzo was always a paper champ back in the WBO days, and that has been fully highlighted as soon as he started fighting tougher guys. I like Haye but if that is one of his biggest wins, he still has a lot to prove as a supposed elite level fighter. I'll be backing 6/1 Audley Harrison to beat him.
Good post. Most people had it a very close fight, a shootout in which the first to land his bombs would win. You can't take it away from Haye and let hindsight cloud things, no matter how low Enzo has fallen since. It annoys me when people do this, it's like the Pacquiao vs. De La Hoya fight when some people i know had Oscar putting Manny's lights out with a left hook before the fight and now they don't give him credit and everything is followed by "If's and but's" You can't have it both ways. Another fight this reminds me of is Hatton vs. Castillo. People will discredt that win and tell you how Castillo was shot. But what they won't say is the fight although not exactly 50/50 was pretty darn close as it was 2:1 Hatton. Most of the inside money bet it all the way down to 2:1 from about 4:1 previously in the week. The "live" money was betting Castillo. I remember because I won a couple hundred quid on that fight.
In hindsight, Castillo was clearly way past his best, even the most hardcore of Hatton fans won't dispute that. His record after that fight more than embarrassingly confirms his state. Even ignoring the weight drain issue, Oscar was past his best as well. People mainly went with Oscar because of the size issue and the questions about how Pac would cope at the weight (not because they thought Oscar smoking hot at the time - did you see him against Forbes at 150 just before the Pac fight?!). We can now see that Pac's more than comfortable at, around the weight. Having said all that, I give Pac a fair bit of decent credit for that win. However, you can't compare those two fighters/fights to Enzo's situation, where it could be argued, if one wanted to, that he is still as good as he ever was, the lad only turned 30 a few weeks ago. In defence of Enzo though, I'd say he does look scarily tentative at times nowadays.
I'm not arguing that Castillo and De La Hoya weren't past it, my point is people use hindsight to rewrite history. If Castillo was soo washed up why was the fight almost 50/50 with the "live" money going on Castillo. You go back to the 2 lbs Forbes screenplay fight, but why was Oscar then an overwhelming favourite in against Pacquiao? See people forget these things. On Enzo being "only 30"? C'mon sir Jon you're too smart for that. You know fighters depreciate at different stages. You can have a shot 28 year old and a fresh 35 year old. Oh and stop it Jonno no one can argue that "Enzo's as good as he ever was". :good
Slip, mate - I think that was largely down to people being sentimental. He'd had a great fight with Corrales (who was originally in line to face Hatton before he got beaten up by Clottey, iirc), but had looked awful against Ngoudjo and unimpressive in the fights inbetween (except his catchweight win in the Corrales rematch). It was apparent to all but the most blinkered that he was faded. Hell, he was probably faded when he faced Corrales the first time, but then so was Chico. I think people alternate between reality and selective memory with guys like Castillo. It was a good finish from Ricky, but the preceding rounds were ugly and maul filled. But you're right about the Oscar win for Manny. Yeah, Oscar was faded and yes he looked awful, but Manny's speed played a big part in that. Lesser fighters would have lost to him that night.
Sorry slip, I disagree with you on this one and picking out a single sentence wording to try and hang me with, perhaps suggests that you may be on the defensive too. Personally, I'd say it's quite easy to argue that Enzo is not a million miles from where he once was. If you however wish to believe that he has fallen from some great precipice, then so be it. As far as my comment about age goes, yes of course I know boxers age differently, but generally speaking Cruiser Weights and Heavyweights, in general, tend to be grow and improve with age, we're not talking about fly weights here. I wouldn't say 29/30 in this day and age that old for a Cruiser/Heavyweight. Is Enzo shot? He was winning, increasingly dominating that fight, until he was caught with a singe punch.
Okay, Okay you're killing me here...you've hit me with a liver shot and i'm taking a knee. My only arguement was we can't allow hindsight to rewrite history, we have to take it as it is and not flip flop. No one that had Enzo beating Haye or De La Hoya destroying Pacquiao can then discredit those wins based on hindsight...thats all I'm saying Jon. :good