What? Sounded like someone failing to put a cogent defense together...:good So unless you care to explain how a bjj fighter's loss shows that high level skills are more useless that basic level skills, i'll consider this another point that's been shat on. atsch... that's why I specifically said Stevenson's submission losses have only been to other black belts (as have most other black belts' submission losses). If your theory held ANY weight, that wouldn't be true b/c almost everyone has basic level bjj skills, and therefore a black belt would be just as likely to be submitted by another black belt as he would by a white/blue/non belt. But they don't b/c a black belt's high skill level makes it extremely difficult for anyone who's not also highly skilled to get submissions on them. So another revision to your stance? First it's you don't need high-level skills, then it's no one uses them high level moves, and now it's that they don't use high level moves often enough... :blood... :rofl... But hey... ignore these random dudes on the internet. Why don't you ask your bjj instructor & the other high level belt holders what they think. My guess... 'stupid ****ing white belt.'...:hi:
May I enquire as to what your rank in BJJ is? I ask because you have quite a strong opinion on BJJ (even though you state wikipedia as a "source"atsch) and I can't take you seriously anymore and I think most people are assuming going by your opinions that IF you hold rank in BJJ as you claim to do that it is of white belt, and even the white belts I know can appreciate the technique and skill involved in these "basic" submissions as they have rolled higher belts and understand the set up is just as important as the submission, and all submissions, even so-called basic ones have little details that that alot of people won't pick up from just watching The Ultimate Fighter every week, doesn't matter how many tapout shirts you own.
Wrong. Shoulder rolling, James toneys head movement(which is an advanced form of head movement), the 'up jab,' lead rights, lead left hooks, lead uppercuts and fighting in the pocket boxing and fighting with your hands down are high level techniques. The footwork, timing, body movement that go with all of those are not high level techniques, it is simply experience that helps the advance techniques. No its not. Its the exact same. Hip movment, positioning, etc. for the bjj practicionar are not advanced techniques, just like footwork, timing, and body movement are not advanced techniques for boxers. See above. You were wrong in the analysis of my argument. Doesn't matter how much skill is behind them, its still a basic move.
That isn't how it works. You see, you have completely failed to provide a shred of evidence for your assertion here: How does a high-level bjj fighter losing prove that all you need is basic-level bjj? It doesn't. All you did was say "it doesn't!" your word isn't good enough, you need evidence to support what you're saying. There was no defense needed for this one because it wasn't anything to begin with, it was just pure assertion on your part without a shred of evidence to back it up. You need to show how a high level bjj fighter losing doesn't prove all you need is basic level bjj. You have absolutely no idea of what my argument is. My theory is that only basic level bjj is needed and mid to high level bjj is useless in maa. If we look at joe stevensen what do we see he was submitted by? BASIC LEVEL SUBMISSIONS. You've done nothing but prove my point here. Thanks for that. Furthermore you're still missing the point, this isn't a pure bjj match, this is mma, you don't have to win by submission only, people aren't always going to go for the submission, people could choose to win however they want to win, so the fact that he isn't being submitted by people other than black belts is just as irrelevant as the fact that he isn't submitting everyone that is not a blackbelt. Your own logic works against you. uh no, that has been my stance since the beginning, since before this thread was even created, try again. Someone slapping on an advance move once in a blue moon does not invalidate my theory at all, it strengthens it. If advanced bjj was useful in mma than it would be used in a higher frequency against quality opponents. Advanced boxing is used in a higher frequency against quality opponetns therefore advanced boxing is useful in boxing! its not hard. I ignore the random dudes on the internet because their arguments are bad.....
I'm a brown belt, furthermore I didn't state wikipedia as a source. Did you know wikipedia has their own sources? they're the numbers right next to the statement and those are legit sources. My source actually came from here http://www.ibjjf.org/graduation.htm and I appreciate all of the skill that goes into setting up a basic submission, but I am not ignorant enough to call them moves nor am I ignorant enough to confuse the experience I gain in setting up a submission with moves. It seems like everyone here is the white belt as they can't tell the difference between a bjj move and positioning. A triangle is a move. Moving your hips, ad******g your weight, leaning, moving your legs, etc. etc. are not moves.
You really think that positioning, misdirection, sweeps, simpley excuting subs like a triangle, armbar etc incredabley well in BJJ can't be devolped enough to be considered "high level technique" while James Toney's head movement can? I think your wrong. You can argue which is the more skillful naturally but as I said your arguement just seems flawed to me, I'v never trained BJJ but it seems like a simple assumption to me that the more "advanced" submissions are not the only forms of technique that can be devolped to a high level. When Roger Gracie got his brown belt did he stop training any possible setup to the RNC because he'd devolped them all to the maximum and instead focused only on expanding the range of submissions he could excute? I think its pretty obvious that he didnt. As I said theres really no direct comparison between the large number of submissions such as the gogoplata in BJJ and boxing. Boxing is naturally limated to "basic" high percentage fight ending techniques because every other striking technique is illegal so excution and setup of those high percentage punches is all of the sport. The kickboxing example I gave seems much better to me, depending on the exact rules theres a much wider set of potentially fight ending techniques but many of them are naturally low percentage moves. Just because kicking techniques like the rolling thunder exist doesnt mean that setting up the higher percentage techniques isnt highly skillful.
You're a brown belt yet you need wikipedia to tell you what level a purple belt should be at?? You're a brown belt but you don't believe a guard pass is a move? A sweep isn't a move? Getting someones back from guard isn't a set move? You think these guys come up with these things from the top of their heads? These are practiced positions, drilled hundreds of times, not just "moving your hips and legs", you're not a brown belt in BJJ, you're a liar.
no....its called providing a source for your assertion. I already knew that but it seems a lot of people around here DO NOT. Are you dumb? This is what I said "Hip movment, positioning, etc" I said a lot more than "moving your hips." The things you described would fall under positioning and etc. it's called a generalization. I am not going to list every single thing someone needs to do, you generalize in a few words to get your point across. Try again.
You didnt answer the basic arguement though, why do you consider the setup for punches in boxing to be "high level technique" but not the setup for submissions in BJJ? Thats really all this debate comes down to, everything else is just strawmen and fluff.
How old are you? Who is your instructor? Where is your school? When did you get your "brown belt" and how?
atsch... YOU brought in the example of Mir & the Gracies losing as evidence, so YOU have to show how that supports your stance. You still haven't even tried to explain, and up to now have just tried to misdirect things w/ your 'just b/c you say so' nonsense. So this is the 3rd time that I'm asking you to explain how bjj fighters losing supports basic-level skills being all you need in MMA. Are you purposely trying to not follow logic here? First, where did I say submissions were the only way to win? I didn't. I said to look at Stevenson's submission losses to illustrate a point about bjj skills in MMA. Second, true or false: You almost always need to be highly skilled to submit a bjj blackbelt in MMA? True. If it wasn't, then we'd see more submissions by people w/ basic skills. But we don't...wonder why... :think So at the very least, high-level skills help you from being submitted by bjj rookies in MMA. :rofl @ aoki & palhares not fighting quality opponents :rofl @ aoki & palhares using their advanced techs 'once in a blue moon'
Allow me to answer for theologicaldisc. How old are you? 12 Who is your instructor? Youtube Where is your school? My what?? When did you get your brown belt and how? Yesterday, I bought it at the local martial arts store and the dude behind the counter promoted me. This guy is brownbelt in trolling, that's about it.
