Greatest Heavyweight Of All Time At Their Peak

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by White Tiger, Sep 24, 2010.


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  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    As always I love your manners.

    Seriously, when I watch them on film I only compare to how they do against the opposition at hand and what that opposition is. I try to put in a context so to speak. But of course, watching Dempsey against Brennan, Gibbons, Carpentier etc puts a check on Arcel's claims on him conquering all and every in the first round.

    On Jeffries, there really isn't much film to go on.
     
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    #91
  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, but easier to debunk concerning Ali due to much more film still being avalaible. And that is what actually has happened.

    I'd say that one of the differences is that there is a much more sceptical eye on the often glowing praise Ali got from contemproraries. rather the focus is more on record and film.

    To summarise: I think you're silly.
     
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    #92
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    If it was a filmed fight, it's easier, if it's not a filmed fight, it's more difficult, if it's properly reported, it's not a problem in the first place.

    This could still happen in 2011, to Roman Gonzalez for example, all of who's fights were not filmed.


    Ali lived up to the praise his contemporaries heaped upon him - in fact, he excelled it for a number of years. This is true of every single HW champion in history, and whatever things the press of the time said about Jeffries that you've decided not to believe, he certainly was a dominant champion who beat the best available.

    Which makes your decision not to believe whatever it was the press wrote about him that you don't believe all the more baffling.
     
    McGrain, Sep 25, 2010
    McGrain, Sep 25, 2010
    #93
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No dispute there.

    EDIT: By the way, didn't Johnson ever challenge Jeffries? Thought his coloured reign parallelled Jeffries' reign. Wrong?

    Let's just say that some of stories about him, that often have been told here, seems less than believable. And, yeah if the press made him out as some unebeatable monster (as seems to be the case according to you and Greg) I'd say that it is not really supported by what actually transpired.

    We should also remember that Liston and Tyson was pretty much described (with quite good basis actually) as unbeatable monsters in 1963 and 1989 respectively, but also that turned out to be wrong.
     
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    #94
  5. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm going to surprise you all by saying.........Muhammad Ali. :lol: A true phenomenon.
     
    Stevie G, Sep 25, 2010
    Stevie G, Sep 25, 2010
    #95
  6. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Joe Louis
     
    Bummy Davis, Sep 25, 2010
    Bummy Davis, Sep 25, 2010
    #96
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    He was ringside for the Monroe fight, and had announced before the fight that he would like to take on the winner. He was labelled "strangely quiet" after the Munroe fight, though that might just have been his sense of career preservation rather than the career's best Jeffries had just put on.



    I agree. But if people were able to provide three or four sources from the time to support these stories, I would see it in a different light.

    But they can't! Of course there are legends about Jeffries that were concocted by whoever, usually some time after they didn't happen - same as Foreman, Tyson etc etc etc

    ...what, you think that the press making him out as unbeatable is unreasonable when what actually transpired was he went unbeaten?

    What happened there was, they both got beaten.
     
    McGrain, Sep 25, 2010
    McGrain, Sep 25, 2010
    #97
  8. Ramon Rojo

    Ramon Rojo Active Member Full Member

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    Tell me more about this Rocky Mariano guy?
     
    Ramon Rojo, Sep 25, 2010
    Ramon Rojo, Sep 25, 2010
    #98
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Unbeaten isn't unbeatable. I'm as yet unbeaten, but far, FAR, from unbeatable.

    Jeffries didn't fight either McVey or Johnson, so he can't really be said to have beaten the best avalaible. His best victims were past prime and he had a hard time with them.

    Yeah, but they also took on the best there was. If you do, you'll almost always be beaten. If Liston had retired in 1963 or Tyson in 1989 they would have better claims than Jeffries IMO of being "unbeatable". The claims would still be untrue, though.
     
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    #99
  10. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    JohnThomas1, Sep 25, 2010
    JohnThomas1, Sep 25, 2010
    #100
  11. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

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    Kalasinn, Sep 25, 2010
    Kalasinn, Sep 25, 2010
    #101
  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, these two also often makes into unbeatable monsters at their peak. Wasn't it Monte Cox who wrote an article here about how Foreman would just wade through Lewis, the Klits etc?

    Hopefully, texts like those will be taken with a healthy grain of salt if someone reads them in 80-100 years. (preferrerably if someone reads them today also)
     
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    #102
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well I don't think the press of the time were saying that he was unbeatable, and that this testimony was to stand for all time, just that he was regarded as being the best HW of his time, the best HW of all time, and the best fighter of any weight in the world at the time of his retirement.


    Johnson was beaten the year after Jeffries came to the title, by Choynski, who Jeffries had beaten. Johnson rehabilitated himself of course, but '04 was about the first year where he could be taken seriously as a challenger. This was the year Jeffries retired. I don't think that Jeffries was more qualified than any fighter that Jeffries met aside from Monroe.

    Rullin KO'd Sharkey for his title shot, for example.

    As for Mcvey, he was beaten four times during Jeffries title reign, once by Denver Martin, and was still a novice. Nobody was interested in seeing that fight, I'd be surprised if McVey had even gone through the almost mandatory calling out of the champion.


    So did Jeffries.

    When he retired, the only figher on the horizon was Johnson, who was unproven and would beaten by Hart just after Jeffries retired.

    Prime for prime that is anyone's fight, but Johnson was not proven as being in Jeffries class, and probably wasn't in Jeffries class, in 1904.
     
    McGrain, Sep 25, 2010
    McGrain, Sep 25, 2010
    #103
  14. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    :d
     
    JohnThomas1, Sep 25, 2010
    JohnThomas1, Sep 25, 2010
    #104
  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Better than Sullivan?

    EDIT: Later would Johnson and then Dempsey be seen as the best champs ever. Then Louis and then Ali. So many of the candidates share this honour. Jeffries in lesser competition, though, since there hadn't been as many preceeding him.

    Surely, they must have been among the best avalaible. EDIT: Also Martin, who was coloured champ during Jeffries' reign.


    Didn't say he was, only that he must have been among the best avalaible.
     
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    Bokaj, Sep 25, 2010
    #105
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