first 2 knuckles vs the last 3

Discussion in 'Boxing Training' started by vitaminko, Oct 1, 2010.


  1. vitaminko

    vitaminko New Member Full Member

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    Aug 17, 2010
    Hi everybody today i red a book called:
    "Championship Fighting
    Explosive Punching
    and
    Aggressive Defense"
    by Jack Dempsey



    it is very interesting that Jack insist that we have to "Always aim with the second knuckle-the one next to your pinky-and LET THE OTHER KNUCKLES TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES" so he means that we have to punch with the last 3 fingers.Me myself found it more natural and solid to hit with the last 3..I usually try to hit with the fist two but its not that natural to me and i have to bend my wrist cause otherwyse i feel pain in the wrist whe n hitting with them.Heres the text from the book i red about:




    ""Unfortunately, however, the hand-bone behind the little knuckle is the most fragile of the five backbones. It can be broken the most easily.
    You must not attempt to land first with the little knuckle. Instead you must try to land first with the knuckle next to your pinky (the ring finger).
    We'll call that the 2nd knuckle. Aiming with the 2nd knuckle usually brings about a three-knuckle landing. Those three-knuckles are: middle,
    second (ring) and pinky. If you aim with the second knuckle, those three knuckles usually will land together because the average fist slopes
    slightly from the middle knuckle to the pinky. Such a three-knuckle landing not only prevents the hand-bone behind any one knuckle from
    bearing all the punch-shock, but it also permits punching almost exactly along the power line. Rarely will one of those knuckles make a solo
    landing. But if you aim with the little knuckle, you risk a dangerous solo landing on forehead or blocking elbow.
    Always aim with the second knuckle-the one next to your pinky-and LET THE OTHER KNUCKLES TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES. They'll
    take care of themselves all right; for the shape of the fist makes it impossible for them to do otherwise.
    Clench your right fist and inspect its knuckles. Your thumb knuckle is "out of the way"-completely separated from your row of four knuckles on
    the striking edge of your fist. More than that, your thumb knuckle is farthest away from your pinky knuckle-farthest away from the end of the
    power line. Nature took care of that. Never double-cross nature by trying to hit with that thumb knuckle, under any circumstance. It breaks
    easily. Keep it out of the way.
    The knuckle of your index finger (the one next to the thumb) is fairly prominent, but not as prominent as the knuckle of your middle finger. In
    some face-punches and in most body-blows, that index knuckle will land with the other three, for a four-knuckle landing. That's okay, let the
    index knuckle come along for the ride. Under no circumstances, however, try to land first with that index knuckle. If you do, you'll not only break
    your power line, but you may also break your wrist.
    Beware likewise of trying to land first with the prominent middle knuckle-the source of most hand injuries. Such aiming will slant your hand off
    the power line and, at the same time, endanger the middle knuckle and its hand-bone. When that middle knuckle makes a solo landing, its
    prominence prevents the other knuckles from helping to absorb some of the punch-shock. That shock or pressure is terrific in any full-fledged
    punch, particularly when you nail an opponent with a head blow just as he is stepping into you. In that split-second, your fist must withstand the
    shock-pressure of an explosive collision between two hurtling body-weights.
    Let me repeat: If your punch is landed correctly, in power-line fashion, the three knuckles-pinky, second and middle-will share the pressure
    and distribute it over the three hand-bones behind the knuckles. That lessens the chance of bruising or crushing any one knuckle, or of
    fracturing any one hand-bone.
    Most professional and amateur boxers suffer hand injuries during their careers even though their fists are protected by bandages, tape and
    gloves, because of unfortunate landings. As I pointed out earlier, the hands HAVE NO SUCH PROTECTION IN A FIST-FIGHT. You must land
    correctly, not only for power-line explosiveness, but for hand protection.
    We have examined the power line and second-knuckle aiming for long-range straight jolts; but what about other types of punches? What
    about medium-range straight punches, and hooks and uppercuts? Does the power line and the second-knuckle aim hold good for them?
    Yes, indeed, they do hold good, YOU MUST HIT ALONG THE POWER LINE IN ALL FULL-FLEDGED PUNCHES; AND YOU MUST
    ALWAYS AIM WITH THE SECOND KNUCKLE.
    The landing position of your fist may change from upright to sideways, in varying degrees, when shooting different types of punches for the
    head. And it may change in various degrees from sideways to upright in punching for the body, BUT ALWAYS YOU MUST PUNCH ALONG
    THE POWER LINE, AND ALWAYS YOU MUST AIM WITH THE SECOND KNUCKLE. You'll get the feel of that power line in other punches
    later. You'll discover that bending the elbow, in a hook for example, does not break the line of power. And you'll find out why."""""


    I would be very thankful the hear your toughts, experience and arguments about this question. :bbb


    P.S.
    Here's link where you can check the book:
    http://zinelibrary.info/files/Championship%20Fighting%20by%20Jack%20Dempsey%20(1950).pdf
     
  2. Lord Henry

    Lord Henry New Member Full Member

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    Sep 2, 2010
    Vitaminko, this is a very interesting topic. Would you mind if I borrow this and re-post it on a martial arts website that I use? I promise to report back any interesting points made.
     
  3. Onepunch

    Onepunch Prestigeous clincher Full Member

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    Mar 1, 2010
    Take into account that the style of punchng used back then was a vertical fist. Boxing has evolved since then, we now punch with a horizontal fist which causes the shoulder to protect us as we punch. It also means that the first two knuckles are better for punching with.

    A vertical fist doesn't get as much power as a horizontal fist as far as I can tell. Bear in mind Dempsey used small gloves in his time and still threw hundreds of punches to take people down.
     
  4. vitaminko

    vitaminko New Member Full Member

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    Aug 17, 2010
  5. vitaminko

    vitaminko New Member Full Member

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    Aug 17, 2010
    u can still hit horizontal with the 3 fingers(and snap at the end) also u can hit vertical and still protect with ur sholder. But my idea is to look at the 3 fingers vs 2 fingers as a - and + for each other despite the style that you are boxing.
    I think when hitting with the last 3 fingers is more natural, more solid, more stable, but u can mess up and hit with the pinky only and broke it. also the pressure is distributed over 3 bones not 2 (or sometimes 1 only the middle).
    Thats my point of view.
     
  6. Onepunch

    Onepunch Prestigeous clincher Full Member

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    Mar 1, 2010
    with a horizontal fist the first two knuckles provide the greater wrist support. A horizontal fisted punch is also more powerful generally than its vertical counterpart. I can't see how the debate remains.

    Everyone wants to be dempsey or Marciano, but **** has changed and boxing has moved on. And tbh I can't see Dempsey being able to stand up to today's heavyweights.
     
  7. vitaminko

    vitaminko New Member Full Member

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    Aug 17, 2010
    its no need to compare boxer from as Dimpsey and today's boxer cause betwen them is whola difference (steroids and s.o.)
     
  8. scrap

    scrap Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Jul 15, 2006
    The secret is having control of the elbow, that is what directs the Hand.
     
  9. Onepunch

    Onepunch Prestigeous clincher Full Member

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    Mar 1, 2010
    LOL. Just LOL.

    technique has more to do with power than what sterois you take.
     
  10. vitaminko

    vitaminko New Member Full Member

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    Aug 17, 2010

    u talkin about power but its not only about power stamina/endurance are just that important and roids enchance them
     
  11. badr_hari

    badr_hari Member Full Member

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    Jul 21, 2010
    good read. Completely agree with Dempsey's theory.
    today's hw may beat Dempsey but it DOESN'T mean we can't learn FROM Dempsey.
     
  12. boxer13

    boxer13 New Member Full Member

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    Sep 23, 2010
    I think if you are hitting with your fist vertical then the last 3 knuckles would feel more solid because of the angle your arm will be in when you turn your fist vertical. And as Onepunch stated if you are punching with your fist horizontal the first 2 knuckles definitely provide more support. I also think it is more powerful too because your first 2 knuckles are straight in line with the rest of your arm(more support) and it makes the punch straighter and not looping(more speed and power).

    In addition to that it is also SAFER. Put your arm out as if you are throwing a straight right but turn your fist vertically and use your other arm to push/hit your shoulder area, do it hard but not too hard and see how much weaker it is and how much more it hurts because you are exposing the underpart of your arm and the joint that connects your arm to your shoulder.
     
  13. AndrewFFC

    AndrewFFC Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Jun 12, 2009
    The 3rd metacarpsal is much more in line with the arm then the index finger metacarpsal.
     
  14. boxer13

    boxer13 New Member Full Member

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    Sep 23, 2010
    Thats true but its so much smaller and so far to the right side of my arm that if I were to be hitting with those last 3 fingers it feels like a lot of the force diffuses through the right side or my arm because it isn't as sturdy and as the inside area of my arm. Seems like you are more educated about the physics of the human body but thats how I see it through actual use and practice.

    Try this to compare the difference: Make a fist as if you are throwing a punch and put your arm straight out. Now use your other arm and with your fingers push at the last 3 knuckles and try to move it up and down and left and right at the same time and see how your fist is much more effected by it and unable to keep as stable. Now do the same thing to your fist 2 knuckles and see the difference. It is much more solid and stable.
     
  15. Relentless

    Relentless VIP Member banned

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    Mar 5, 2006
    this is a none issue, boxers dont give a **** which knuckles they hit you with, they just do it.