From some past threads I've read people argue that he could only teach one style, and that he simply lucked out with Tyson being perfectly suited physically for his style. I was very shocked to hear that opinion but it seemed that there were more than a few on this board that shared the same sentiments. Now the question that I have is does anybody here feel that he is overrated as a coach being mentioned with the greats? Has he ever coached a pure boxer? How would he have develped Ali had he been fortunate enough to land him at a young age? Always eager to hear the opions form classic posters. Thanks
I've always felt that Cus was great at guiding fighters to becoming champions, but his efforts became counterproductive once he got them there. He didn't allow them to develop or expand their styles, and deprived them of needed experience by overprotecting them. Cus used to criticize Patterson after they split, saying Patterson had gotten lax with the peek-a-boo style Cus had taught him. Ironically, I've always thought that's exactly what Patterson needed to do to compete more effectively at the top level, which Patterson's post-championship success seems to reaffirm.
Are you implying that a peak a boo style isn't effective at the top level? If Tyson had used a traditional style he wouldn't have been nearly as successful as he was. One size doesn't fit all. If there's one perfect style, every fighter would fight the exact same way.
I think it requires a great deal of athleticism for the style to be success. This is why I don't find him to be the greatest coach or teacher. I think he was a great coach psychologically (Although you could argue he over-did) but often probably should have allowed more leeway and potential experience and perhaps a personal growing experience (Not just laying out on so thick). I think the man was a genius, though. And very very successful and not only inventing a fighting style but preparing a fighter's mind (Regardless of two of his champions seeming weak mentally). Someone like Jake LaMotta would've never been more successful fighting in this style than the crouch style. This is why adaptable or leeway is more important. Groom a fighter toward his strengths. There is no one size fits all shoe, nor style.
He took more than one fighter from scratch and helped them become champion. That means more in my book than some of these trainers nowadays who tend to improve on fighters who've already made it. Having said that, Cus didn't do all the training duties himself, he had people helping him. He was a great trainer, a great manager of young talent. I'm not sure his emphasis on psychology was ultimately helpful though. Patterson and Tyson both remained somewhat fragile and unstable as far as confidence goes. Patterson especially, and Tyson when his career and life became hectic and he lost a fight. And they both came to Cus as seriously "damaged" youngsters, with ******ed socialization and very low self-esteem. This may just be coincidence though. A lot of that pyschology stuff obviously was helpful. And without Cus's interest both Patterson and Tyson would have probably been discarded by society.
The thing about D'amato is that he wanted all his fighters to be exciting. He didnt want his fighters to lay back and just try and win, he wanted them to excite the crowd and go for the win and that type of style just wasnt vanilla enough for the average fighter. Vulnerable fighters like Patterson and Tyson were the easiest to "reprogram" for a guy like D'amato and that was a big part of his deal, but it wasnt necessarily a bad thing for a street kid or a kid lacking in self confidence.
His teachings did not work out for everybody, Wilfred Benitez and Patrick Ford being examples. Benitez was a laid back counter puncher, while Ford was a tall puncher.
I agree and I think this goes for all trainers, especially one who teaches a pretty unique style of fighting.
Very very few people could observe a 12 year old sparring and correctly predict him to be the future heavyweight champion of the world. I always agree with the genius label.
cus obviously had something. he left his mark. atlas, Mathis, Rooney, Patterson and jose tores all raved on him but I understand that his controlling ways did not suit everyone. Its easy to think of old cus as a kind of good ***in who took in and groomed young waif's and strays into champion fighters or trainers but I remember reading of one troubled youth who did not make the grade who committed suicide after being rejected by cus. He clearly got through to most people; cus spoke a lot of sense, was a great orator and got more out of fragile personalities than perhaps another trainer could. The peek-a-boo style and combination punching format was really his take on existing sound boxing fundamentals anyway. he did not introduce new punches into boxing. just tweaked the classic stance and utilising the classic range of punches that always existed jabs, hooks, cross, doubling up hooks and returning hands to the stance etc. his fighters always went to the body and had a nice compact stance.
This is true, and Cus stated it often. And I think this is a big part of why Tyson would start to get frustrated in fights where guys tried to tie him up and slow him down instead of go for the win...not necessarily because he was "weak minded". Tyson wanted to FIGHT, and it was frustrating when other fighters did not have the same mentality.
Quote: After Ford fought Pedroza for the WBA title in 1981, he began to train under legendary trainer Cus D'Amato. Ford only trained four months with D'Amato, and left because he could not handle the peekaboo style that D'Amato taught his fighters. Ford disliked the style because he felt he was too tall to be slipping and ducking under punches to create openings. Ford was a featherweight, and felt that he should use his height and reach to an advantage against the shorter featherweights. While training under D'Amato, Ford had an opportunity to stay in D'Amato's house; boarding in a room that was adjacent to Mike Tyson's. Even though Ford believed the style of fighting D'Amato was teaching him was inappropriate for his featherweight frame, he felt he picked up some important concepts. The most important being the idea of hitting hard. "D'Amato would tell a fighter, 'Do not hit at the target, hit through the target.' And that was his philosophy of power, instead of telling a fighter to hit hard. D'Amato was a trainer who used psychology to train his fighters," Ford said. Quote: The change in management, at least in the beginning, didn't help. Jacobs sent Wilfred to D'Amato's upstate New York training camp. D'Amato admired Wilfred's talent enormously but concluded, "This fellow has a terrible ego. He won't admit there are some things about boxing that he doesn't know." Benitez left after a month. "He was lonesome," D'Amato says. "He couldn't go to town, couldn't have his girl up here. Nothing meant anything to him but having a good time." "I don't train because they keep on repeating things over and over," Benitez says. "I already know all those things. I do my own thing. I don't need all this training. I'm a professional. I only have to maintain my speed, my movement." Quote: Benitez has always been a brilliant defensive fighter, sometimes at the expense of his offense. D'Amato delicately suggested a few changes that would improve Benitez' attack while taking nothing away from his defense. Benitez would listen intently and nod but.... "See, I know this fellow, Hamsho. He's an aggressive guy," D'Amato said. "He keeps coming, almost on a straight line. Now he can absorb the punches because he sees them coming. Now Benitez can punch a lot harder than people think. But he doesn't punch; he just comes out to outbox opponents with his smarts. I talked to him about moving side to side and punching. With Hamsho coming on a straight line, Benitez can move to the side and hit with maximum power and not be afraid of being hit, because Hamsho won't be in a position to hit him." During training, Benitez showed no inclination to adopt D'Amato's suggestion. Instead he tried to refine a defense that was already perfect. Meanwhile, Hamsho, a 29-year-old native of Latakia, Syria, practiced doing what he does best: hitting other people. He recounts with great pride his prowess as a street brawler in Syria. "I fight so much that every day I need a new shirt, and every day they throw me out of school," he says. "I live in a tough neighborhood and sometimes it was hell. You fought to survive. You fought because you are bored. You were young, and you had nothing else to do." These quotes are all very interesting. Would you be able to provide the link for the piece in its entirety TheGreatA?
http://www.landofsixpeoples.com/news402/ns404226.htm http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1121053/2/index.htm http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1125178/6/index.htm
