In the Ring: Marvin Hart .. Real facts on Johnson fight

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by he grant, Oct 8, 2010.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    In fact, i'll go a little further. It's bad form to undermine Hart's win by inferring that he won purely or mainly for stylistic reasons without working to prove that this is the case. It's fine to mutter about caution based upon stylistic reasons for a while, but sooner or later you have to try to prove the point or let the point slide.
     
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    #31
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Well the news reads and official results that I mention have nothing to do with the benefit of the doubt. The question you began to ask yourself is valid. Should an ATG really struggle this much in the ring?
     
    Mendoza, Oct 9, 2010
    Mendoza, Oct 9, 2010
    #32
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    An ATG should do winning. Johnson's style allowed for lazy performances, we all know that.
     
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    #33
  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    And I'm beginning to think your infatuation with Johnson holds no bounds. I have been here for nearly 10 years, and have said positive and negative things about fighters regardless of their race, or creed. To play the race card when your out of ammunition is but an ad hominem attack. To cite others to deflect blame does not absolve any of Johnson's sins. If this were a legal argument you would quickly be over ruled.

    We won't agree on this topic McVey. The good news is I am going to spend far more time talking boxing. If I agree with you, I'll say so. I'm man enough not to let one topic dominate my thoughts. The floor is open for you to debate this topic. By the way, I read today that Johnson's manager said the Kaufman fight was fixed in the Unforgivable Blackness link I posted.
     
    Mendoza, Oct 9, 2010
    Mendoza, Oct 9, 2010
    #34
  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    It also allowed for draws, and a losses. The key point to look at here is when Johnson meet a fighter near his size, experience, who could punch, his results were mediocre.
     
    Mendoza, Oct 9, 2010
    Mendoza, Oct 9, 2010
    #35
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    What makes me think "stylistic issues" is that fact that Hart lost to and had competitive fights with some people that Johnson dominated. His resume does not imply that he particularly stands out among Johnsons oponents outside of the fact that he beat him.

    As for the issue of Johnson being ready, he was probably as ready as he was going to get.
     
    janitor, Oct 9, 2010
    janitor, Oct 9, 2010
    #36
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    But that's all supposition Janitor. Absolutely fine as a starting point, but it has to lead somewhere. You say yourself that Hart appears capable, according to press, of looking absolutely exceptional on occasion; here he is excelling in his biggest fight. Hart appears to have fought very aggressively with a body attack. This seems to have been the "blueprint" to beat Johnson and was a plan adopted by other fighters. I can't see any stylistic advantages that Hart appears to have that Burns did not have.

    Perhaps the book can shed some light on the matter.
     
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    #37
  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I think it goes without saying that Marvin Hart is one of the most underrated fighters ever. Underrated. Unknown. Ignored. Overlooked.

    Yes, Johnson was a bit of a loafer. We can see that on films of his later fights.

    People are saying the Hart-Johnson fight showed that Johnson wasn't ready for Jeffries, but frankly I don't know how Hart compares to Jeffries. Was Jeffries champion at the time ? If so, why didn't he face Hart ?

    Tommy Burns was good too. He beat Hart, and Johnson beat Burns quite easily. I have no idea how Jeffries would have done against Hart and Burns.
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 9, 2010
    Unforgiven, Oct 9, 2010
    #38
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, Jeffries was still officially champ. Hart became #1 contender by virtue of having beaten Johnson, and probably would have been named champion by virtue of this victory in the 50's. There was no momentum for a bout with Jeffries; nobody gave Hart a chance.
     
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    #39
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    So he didn't bother fighting Hart, thus proving that Johnson was nowhere near ready for him ??
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 9, 2010
    Unforgiven, Oct 9, 2010
    #40
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    ...no, Hart beat Johnson, eliminating him front the title race, proving, as completely as it is possible to prove something, that Johnson was not ready for his title shot - by virtue of the fact that he was eliminated from the title race by another fighter. Simple. Fair.

    As far as relative class goes, yeah, i'm satisfied that Johnson wouldn't have beaten Jeffries had they fought in '04. Jeffries was at the absolute height of his powers in this year, Johnson was beaten by Hart.
     
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    #41
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I'd be happy to put Johnson in with Jeffries at the end of 06/beginning of 07, I think.
     
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 9, 2010
    #42
  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Well, I agree that Hart deserved the chance to fight Jeffries more than Johnson did. It is simple and fair., as you say. Problem is, Jeffries didn't fight Hart.

    Truth is, Jeffries wasn't in a habit of fighting THE most deserving challengers around this time. What were Jack Munro's credentials ?
    An old Corbett coming off another lengthy absence from the prize ring. Yeah, not surprising Jeffries was at the height of his powers - he's fighting joke fights. And he gets a pass for not fighting Hart because "no one gave Hart a chance".
    I'd suggest that Hart represented far stiffer opposition than the men Jeffries fought in '03 and '04, and by extension of the assumption that Hart-Johnson was a close fight, Johnson did too.
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 9, 2010
    Unforgiven, Oct 9, 2010
    #43
  14. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Good post
     
    PowerPuncher, Oct 9, 2010
    PowerPuncher, Oct 9, 2010
    #44
  15. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Going by this logic Baldomir beat Mayweather because Mayweather wasn't aggressive enough
     
    PowerPuncher, Oct 9, 2010
    PowerPuncher, Oct 9, 2010
    #45
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