In the Ring: Marvin Hart .. Real facts on Johnson fight

I've read that Johnson marked Hart up quite badly.but I've never thought of Johnson as a particularly hard puncher, plus he seldom went for the ko.
Whatever, he seems to have seriously slipped up here ,and muffed his big chance to shine.
I don't think Jeffries would have fought Johnson then though, even if Jack had kod Hart impressively, maybe that would have made it even more unlikely Jeffries ,many times said he would not take a chance on losing the title to a black man

 

If Jeffries peaked with the Munroe fight it's a shame he didn't fight Hart or even Johnson.

I'm not convinced Jeffries fought the particularly qualified challengers prior to fighting Corbett the second time. I seem to remember Corbett had some pretty bad form coming into the first fight, and didn't Fitzsimmons fight Jeffries coming off a layoff too ?

 

I have a gut feeling the Chicago Tribune needs further examination. George Silers sounding off about a Jack Johnson robbery is so strident. Proquest misses allot of stuff, gotta spool up the microfilm.

 

Been swatting up ?," Ad hominem" [to the man].Why did you mention that the majority of Johnson's prostitutes were white? Was the question, which you did not answer by the way.
You cherry pick," Unforgiveable Blackness" ,take out what suits, and what is an inconvenient fact is labelled ,"an innaccuracy".Fact is, Ward cribbed from Randy Roberts ,whom you discredit.
Why would the fight have to be fixed?
Johnson carried Kaufman,E D Burrows of the San Francisco Bulletin ,estimated that Kaufman landed" no more than half a dozen punches,and those only stirred Johnson into action.For every punch he landed Kaufman was forced to pay a dear price".

 

I would have said there was no doubt that Jack Finnegan was Jeffries worst challenger, and there was absolutely no demand for that fight whatsoever.
It took Jeffries 3 years before he gave a rematch to Corbett and 3 years before he gave one to Fitzsimmons.Corbett had not fought in 3 years, Fitz had been out of the ring for 2 years.
The Munroe fight lasted 3 min and 45 seconds,seems they evaluated a lot in a very short time to me.

 

Fitz had been out 3 years ,Corbett 2 years in the first fight and 3 years in the second, Corbett had not won a fight for 6 years when he challenged Jeffries the first time.

 

:good

Thanks.
Yes, those are the facts.

Jack Johnson's form from 1903-1905, even when we are including losing to Marvin Hart, actually shapes up well against most, if not all, of Jeffries' challengers. He was young and active and winning all but one of his fights.
I'm not saying he deserved a shot - Hart beat him, and Jeff was retired anyway - but he's a step up from old guys who haven't fought in 2 or 3 years.

 

For what it is worth here are their results vs common oponents:

Philadelphia Jack Obrien-fought a draw and an ND with Hart and held Johnson to a farcical draw. His fights with Hart were more serious afairs and Hart beat him for practical purpouses in the ND.

George Gardiner-defeated Hart and lost to Johnson.

Joe Choynski-lost to hart and defeated Johnson. This probably dosnt mean much because Johnson was green when Choynski beat him and Choynski was shot when Hart beat him.

Sandy Ferguson-lost to both but arguably deserved the decision against Hart while Johnson dominated him in all their encounters.

Tommy Burns-defeated Hart and was dominated by Johnson.

Tonny Ross-lost to both, but was dominating an admitedly shot Hart when he fouled him, and got dominated by Johnson.

On paper Hart is 5-2-2 and Johnson is 5-1-1. In practice though he is boosted by the Choynski fights where they met the oponent under verry differenc circumstances, a controvertial win over Ferguson, and a win over Ross on a foul. The fights that form the best barometer are probably Gardiner, Ferguson, and Burns in which Hart is 2-1 or 1-2 and Johnson is 6-0.

 

Well Munroe, out of shape went the distance with Johnson. Jeffries destroyed an in shape Munore. The fight was built up becuase Munore managment lied to the press about a knock down in a 4 round ex match. If you compare and contrast common opponents between Jeffries and Johnson ( Choynski, Griffin, Munroe, Everett ), Jeffries results were much better.

While I agree Finnegan had no business getting a title shot, Jeffries did what a champion is supposed to do when matched vs an un-worthy challenger. That is to say, end it very early. He did the same vs. Kennnedy, and blew out Griffin in a 4 rounder as champion.

As Champion, Jeffries faced far better opposition than Johnson did as champion.

 

I've read that he did bust up the left side of his face but never seriously hurt him despite teeing off on him many times ... again, Hart might have simply had a terrific chin but he was dropped by Root in his title winning bout .. look that stuff is splitting hairs .. my main point is that if Marvin Hart gave him hell imagine what Dempsey or Frazier might have done to him ?

 

The loss Hart to can ceratinly be seen as a plausible argument that Johnson would also lose to Jeffries, but it's far from an overvelming one. There are also several other factors to consider:

1. Jeffries didn't beat Hart either. We all would bet on him doing so in an actual fight, but we would also all bet on Johnson beating Hart if they hadn't met.

2. Johnson had quite an impressive record these years aside from this loss.

3. There are several instances where greats had had unimpressive bouts prior to their biggest wins. Ali and Holyfield are of course two that immediatly springs to mind. The reverse are also true; for example Louis being KO'd by Schmeling soon after taking apart Baer who in turn KO'd Schmeling.

 

Are you serious? We can go on with that all night. If Fireman Jim Flynn..., if Bonavena..., if Doug Jones..., if Schmeling..., if Buster Douglas..., if Bert Cooper..., if Rahman... Well, you get the picture.

I definitely find Johnson's obvious problems (as in losing) with Hart interesting, but let's not one loss completely alter our perspective.

 

Johnson let quite a few men hang around, whom he could have finished earlier including Jeffries.It proves nothing.
Ps When a Champion is matched against an unworthy challenger a Champion is supposed to say. NOTHING DOING.GET ME A BETTER OPPONENT.:good

 

So one of Johnson's attributes for which he is celebrated on this forum is his ability to under-perform and tantalize the imagination of what he could have done.

Great, sign me up.