Marciano's first loss...

Of course you were joking. Holmes aint beating any version of Marciano.

 

Machen and Folley had that draw in April 1958. My supposition is that Machen would have gotten his shot at Marciano the year prior to that setback.

We need to factor another consideration into the picture concerning actual likely challengers to Marciano. Sid Flaherty and Eddie Machen were affiliated with the IBC, giving them an inside track to a shot at Marciano that was lost when D'Amato and Patterson succeeded Weil and Rocky. Floyd and Cus didn't merely rock the IBC boat, they capsized it. But with Marciano and Weil soldiering on with the title beyond 1955, Machen has a much stronger chance at getting a shot by running his perfect record up as high as 23-0-0 by the end of 1957.

In Rocky's entire 49-0-0 professional career, he squared off against a grand total of one opponent with an unblemished record himself. Marciano-Machen would have made history, the first time two undefeated fighters had competed for the heavyweight title under Queensbury rules since Corbett-Sullivan, and the first time ever that two with unblemished records had done so. (As it was, this happened for the first time with Frazier-Mathis in 1968, then the FOTC, then Foreman-Frazier I. Incredibly, the first heavyweight champion to successfully defend against a challenger with a perfect record was Patterson, who first did it against Roy Harris, then successfully again after regaining it, against Tom McNeeley. As we all know, Marciano himself was the very first man with an unblemished record to ever even challenge for that title, let alone win it.) The history making novelty of two combatants with perfect records squaring off for the biggest prize in sports may have been enough to sell the event. (Admittedly, that could be presumptuous. Billy Conn's prejudice that, "When a fighter's undefeated, there's something wrong," was still a deeply ingrained bias in 1957, despite Marciano's success.)

 

This is a very good point. you might be onto something there.

as well as 37-0 lastarza marciano knocked out these two very early on:
Bobby quin 8-0 (18-0) Eddie ross 15-0 (27-0), not that it means much. If marciano fought in 57' I think he would still beat machen, in 58' machen would have more of a chance. By 59' marciano is well out of his depth and too far outside of his own era, by then machen would not be in the running anyway. Like samson Marciano was human, a genuine contender in 59 would upset a bald marciano.

 

According to my info, Ross had a draw, but I somehow missed Ross entirely. Good catch! (Of course I was thinking of LaStarza.)

We'll never know, but it might well be that the Machen-Folley draw would embolden Weil to be willing to sign either to a title shot in 1958. But Rocky did have a bad back, a strenuous training regimen, and a swarming style of attack that does not age well. He was getting noticeably slower, and this process of degradation would continue. Still, to beat him, even at that stage, a combination of durability, speed and skill would be required, as anybody taking him on among that contemporary crop would be sure to sustain a beating. Eddie was tough enough to stay on his feet through 12 rugged rounds with a young Liston. Folley was on fire between 1955 and 1960, but I don't believe he ever had the requisite ruggedness to get through 15 with Marciano.

Although Rocky was sliding, I just don't see any way Baker and Jackson topple him in 1956. Our apparent difference of opinion is my projection that Marciano's decline would intersect with Machen's progress by 1957. I believe Eddie would be found to be a significant upgrade from Jackson and Baker in terms of skill and resistance. I expect that Machen would be looking to beat Rocky over the distance, and prepare accordingly. Ingo caught him cold, but Marciano was no longer generating that sort of fast start. Big Cat, DeJohn X2, and Liston later proved that he could hang with large and heavy hitters. Rocky would outwork him, of course, but would he still have had the speed to outscore or stop Machen in 1957? Because the only time Eddie was stopped in a bout of attrition, it was that dubious final round late career halt with Frazier when he was 34.

 

Patterson.

 

There is simply no way that either Patterson's or Ingo's chin would hold out for 15 rounds against that nonstop hard punching bull.

 

Even the Machen blowout failed to impress many in the US, and the memory of how Ingo was disqualified in the Olympics remained clinging to him. He was still just 21-0 when he dethroned Patterson in June, 1959. Giving an upstart with between 15 and 20 fights a shot at Marciano in 1957 or 1958, even a European titleholder with championship round experience, would have been a tough sell in that era.

 

After Ingo won the belt, Marciano went back into the gym to see if he still had the stuff to train and compete, but decided he didn't. Obviously, the Rock thought Ingo would not be a big problem but either his back or his desire to adhere to his usual ascetic routine were not there.

 

well..maybe not from the prime Marciano...but from a older and somewhat shot rocky?

 

yet at 23-0 machen is a more sellable contender in 57? IMO the 1958-59 season is the cut off point where old rocky can no longer turn away a good oponent.

The charles fights took the edge off marciano for the cockell fight but the chalenge of Moore (a super fight) brought the best out of him. however, rock would likley lose something for the next fight. 1956-57 I belive marciano would be 20% the fighter he was -simular form that he produced against cockell but enough to smoke baker, jackson, pastrano (even machen) in much smaller indoor fights.

By 58-59 marciano is running at 60% of the fighter he was in 1952 and likely facing lightheavy champ patterson, ingo and liston in big fights. its a tall order brining anything less than the form he brought to the cockell fight.

 

Machen and Folley would have been blasted out the ring, c.'57 - '59

Marciano v. Henry Cooper would have been a blood bath, TV stations would discontinue showing Marciano titles fights for a good 10 years after such a bloody spectacle. The biggest fights, eg. V.Clay and Liston, would get closed circuit coverage anyway.

Chuvalo might go the distance with a 40 year old Marciano up in Canada. Not many others would.

Ingo. Destroyed. Terell. Destroyed. Big Cat Williams. Destroyed.
Any young fighter coming up would be destroyed until Foreman takes out the aging Rocky after a 20-year reign.
Marciano knew he could have carried on for that long but it would have meant sacrificing all those years to training camps and putting up with the bull**** business side of boxing, thieving managers etc.

 

if charles wasnt the same after 1956 why would rocky?

 

I can't think of a lot of guys.
Ingo and Patterson would be at a huge disadvantage based on their chin.
I doubt Machen could do it, either, All Marciano would need is one right hand to get him out of any of these fights.
Against a green Sonny Liston though, maybe he could do it, he was tough enough and he certainly hit hard enough, I don't really know how well he would do against Marciano's pressure though.

 

Well, here is where American jingoism rears it's ugly head. The late 1950s was not seen as a particularly strong period in heavyweight boxing. But Machen could be presented as the toughest and most proved of the young crop of contenders then ascendant to a domestic audience. Baker, Valdes, Maxim and Jackson were familiar to American fans, and Eddie had demonstrated a measure of skill and toughness necessary to sell him as a viable opponent for Rocky. I think Folley would have had an equally strong chance to challenge for the title, but do not believe Zora ever had the chin or toughness to pull off the upset. (He had been stopped once with an injured rib in June 1955, then again when it was suspected his jaw was fractured in December 1955. Based on that, how well could he be sold as a title challenger in 1957?)

A safe, conservative bet. Admittedly, I'm living on the edge a bit with my speculation that a fully primed and prepared Machen could do the trick in 1957.

Yet again, we have to factor in the question of IBC affiliation with regard to potential challengers.

Patterson does become a more interesting case if he's the reigning LWH Champion succeeding Moore. Would D'Amato be more willing to have Floyd challenge Rocky if he already has the title at 175 safely in hand, regardless of the outcome of Marciano-Patterson? Still, Floyd is very young, we know the susceptibility to knockdowns subsequently revealed, and Marciano wasn't prone to succumbing late as Patterson's failed challengers were.

If Ingo was seen as a genuine threat to Floyd, D'Amato may have held off Johansson's challenge as he did Liston's. As for Sonny, his considerable baggage had even JFK pleading with Patterson not to give him a shot at the title. Marciano was respected and sensible, as were his title opponents. (This consideration could really open the door to a title shot for the socially esteemed Folley.) To hand Marciano a loss, it was necessary first to get him in the ring. There is no kind of guarantee Liston would have been granted that opportunity, or Ingo.