In the Ring: Marvin Hart .. Real facts on Johnson fight

We all know the story behinf the Johnson O'Brien fight, and how Johnson cynicaly used the ND rules of the day to make an easy buck.

Hart fought O'Brien to a draw and an ND in contests that seem to have been serious afairs, and had the better of the ND (I think).

 

I don't.
All I know is they fought a 6-rounder ND. Johnson was apparently out of shape.

 

These are perhaps the most crucial factors if you debate whether Jeffries ducked Johnson or not.

But I wasn't discussing that, only if the loss to Hart is a strong indication that Johnson would stand no chance against Jeffries around that time. I don't think it is that strong an indication, even though it can't of course be ignored either.

 

Basicaly Johnson took a fight with a name fighter who couldnt punch, and arranged the bout so that the only way O'Brien could win was if he scored a knockout inside six rounds.

It was basicaly alow risk way of making money and he didnt train because the only thing he needed to dotoretain his title was finish the fight on his feet.

 

Well, that's to be expected. I wouldn't call it cynical. It was a nice little ND fight, 6 rounds, basically an exhibition. A chance for both men to earn some money. Scheduled for six, so the crowd knew what to expect. Not a serious defence of the title.
O'Brien probably benefited equally from the fact that Johnson didn't need to score a KO to keep the title.

 

Finally getting my brain around this ... perhaps the best way to look at it is the most obvious... Johnson was a defensive minded master boxer/counter puncher (very much a heavyweight Hopkins) ... he more than likely legitimately deserved a clear victory over a very tough and motivated Hart (who is highly under rated these days) and was robbed by a biased ref ... aggression alone is not the determination of victory .. Just because Johnson did not KO Hart does not mean he was defeated ... from all I'm reading in Adam's book, Hart was very much a Bonavena type in his day; very strong, tough, excellent stamina, iron chin and good punch) Bonavena gave Ali and Frazier fits .. it happens ...

 

In some rounds Johnson hardly threw a punch. To put into context of modern tersm, Johnson built an early lead, then pulled an Oscar de la Hoya....for the 2nd half of a 20 round fight.

Bonevena had a much better chin than Hart. Hart was down more than you think, but I do agree both of them had stamina and guts.

 

I never looked down on anyone for being interested in dramatic film footage of Lester Johnson or Jeanette. What I said was that it doesnt interest me and I even added that the only such footage that does is footage of Greb's opponents, hence my excitement at finding footage of Captain Bob Roper. Talk about petty sniping.

 

Again, Johnson getting the benefit of the doubt for underproducing. At some point one must accept that he was just not as good as a whole cadre of apologists would like to make him out to be.

 

Agreed with Seamus. The benefit of the doubt seems to be a constant with Johnson's uneven performances.

As for O'Brien, he the past his prime middle weight did well in the 6 round match. Some papers say O'Brien edged Johnson in a 6 round match.

Once Adam finishes his Burns book, Johnson apologists better brace themselves for the ring results and primary sources of his matches, some of which I have already posted here. Adam will flush out the truth. The benefit of the doubt need not apply.

 

Do you have a date? I have to have some time to prepare.

 

The fact that Jack Johnson was a lazy loafer who often underperformed or carried fighters, or came in to fights out of shape and allowed himself to be outhustled by middleweights in so-called title defences in 6-round NDs does NOT amount to an attractive set of qualities for a great fighter.

But I feel the same way about a lot of what Muhammad Ali did from 1970 onwards.

There are other more recent - and current ! - champions who likewise get accused, justifiably so, of doing just enough, being lazy, or lacking in conditioning.

Johnson may have been the worst culprit but he had his fair share of fights where he was a clear and superior winner and in great shape.
The likelihood that some of these fights were faked "by arrangement" needs to be considered too. Of course that cuts both ways.