Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

It's that old style clash thing,is n't it ? Look at the Ali-Foreman-Frazier triangle. Foreman would destroy Frazier any day of the week. Ali and Frazier would always push each other all the way,but Ali would always find Foreman easier to deal with than Frazier. Same would apply with Ali,Frazier and Liston.

 

liston could never ever beat ali:good

 

it would be foreman-frazier all over.. with one big difference !! liston is a way way better fighter. his punches are much more accurate.. strenght is probably the same as foreman. his jab is way better.. if frazier wants to hurt liston he is gonna take some big hurting when coming to sonny.. joe has the heart of a lion but styles make fights. and sonny is all wrong for joe

 

i am not saying he could... but..... a 1958-1960 liston would be one very very tough opponent for ali..

 

Exactly.

Liston himself had done the exact same thing several years earlier when he turned down $125,000 offer to fight Johansson. How many of the same people who talk about other fighters "ducking" Liston apply the same logic and claim that Liston ducked Johansson?

 

I think a peak 1969-1971 Frazier would have had a tough row to hoe in winning a first time match against Foreman, although I don't rule it out. In their 1976 return, Smoke adjusted dramatically. A peak Frazier would have been around 202 for a second shot at George, thus lighter and more mobile than he was at an aged 224-1/2. Taking Foreman into deep water, Joe would have had the necessary stamina and power to put him away.

For Frazier-Liston, I expect Sonny to fight on the retreat, as he did in stopping Scrap Iron. Much would depend on how actively Smoke employed the bob and weave to elude Liston's jab on the way inside. Sonny had tremendous strength and power, but Joe had the faster hands, and was more ideally suited for infighting. Liston never went beyond 12 rounds. Frazier proved himself twice over the championship distance. He may well be considerably behind going into the home stretch, but as he would with Foreman, he'd also have the necessary endurance and power to halt Sonny prior to the final bell.

As far as I'm concerned, 1969 to 1971 FOTC Frazier is a top five heavyweight.

 

Why would a fighter have to be good enough to beat Foreman in order to beat Liston?

 

Styles are way against Frazier here, even Prime.

One needs 3 things to beat Joe Frazier, clearly and decisively, and likely beat him by knockout:

1: A truly legendary jab-Liston had this. His jab was like a right hand, it was accurate, and he had tremendous range.

2: Very heavy hands- Liston is one of the better punches in heavyweight history. He doesn't have the power of a Foreman, who just eats Joe's come forward style alive with ease, but he has more than enough to hurt and bust up Joe.

3. The strength to not be overwhelmed inside-Liston again, was a very powerful man. Frazier would have the advantage inside skillwise, but he would struggle with the power of Liston.

Joe is a tough fight for ALOT of guys. Most of them. But he loses to Liston because Liston has all the tools, and Frazier doesn't really have anything in his kit to handle a Prime Liston.

Liston TKO 10.

And btw, Frazier never makes it out of the 7th against Foreman. At any point in his career. He can't handle the power, he can't avoid the uppercut, and he wasn't strong enough to muscle George.

I truly believe Liston and Foreman, and to a lesser extent Lewis, are Fraziers stylistic nemeses head to head. He has a great chance of beating the rest.

 

Your posts have been excellent reading lately.

Only thing i would like to comment on is that IMO the power difference between George and Sonny is miniscule.

 

Different kinds of power, in my opinion. The shots Foreman hit Frazier with, literally looked liable to disconnect his head from his neck. They were huge.

Liston had a more measure power. He'd punch for the back of your skull, line you up and use accuracy and a very heavy punch to put you out.

In short, part of Liston's power was in his superb delivery. Foreman could knock you out with anything.

 

I think 1968 - FOTC conditioned Frazier sees round 7 easily against Foreman but not after tasting the canvas once or twice. George wouldn[t finish him and doesn't make it past round 10 himself before Joe stops him. The slower, heavier, Frazier never got close enough to work George's body. This would have been significantly different IMO if George faced the same champion of 68-FOTC. The Joe that fought Ellis, Foster, Quarry and Ali would not be an easy assignment for George Foreman, especially considering the stamina issues he presented in his first title reign.

Liston isn't that much taller than Frazier and I think Joe's speed and body movements are underappreciated. Frazier wouldn't crumble like the scared Floyd Patterson and it's not unreasonable to believe that he'd land his signature body shots against Liston. As for Lennox Lewis, he presents a reach advantage, but considering how much trouble Lewis had with Holyfield the second time, who barely moved his head, Frazier could definitely make Lewis miss and land his hooks to the big body target that he is and stop him well before the 12th.

 

Thank you. I was basically rolling my emoticonical eyes because the highlighted line is so, so, so very contrary to any perception of brother Joe's nature that I've ever had from what I've seen and heard of him. His team? Maybe they did have concerns as the teams of fighters have their obvious stake in protecting their men and are sometimes nervous pisswillies about matchmaking with their prospects. So, maybe his team, but Joe...well, unless I hear it from the horse's mouth, I really don't believe he'd have been wary of fighting anybody from Liston to King Kong. Let's keep in mind that after the beat-down he suffered against Foreman, and the issues concerning his eyes on top of that, he still hauled his butt back into the ring with Foreman AGAIN. This is really not the type of guy to turn down fighting the best and toughest, that I can see...Which brings us back around to, who was Liston at any time that Joe could've been accused of ducking anybody?

 

Frazier was hittable, and was staggered many times in his pre-FOTC career. FOTC Frazier was a peak Joe Frazier, not a super Frazier-No fighter makes him limitations go away. Joe's jaw was far from iron, even if it was very good, and his defense far from perfect. He waded in, at times forgot to move his head(Which made him easy prey in the first 3 rounds of FOTC for Ali), loaded up on the left hook while often dropping his right hand, etc etc.

My point is, no, FOTC Frazier does not develop some super jaw, nor do his skills elevate to the point he is unrecognizable. Foreman would still hit him, still hurt him, still be stronger then him, and still be larger. Frazier had good head movement, but in every fight in the mans career, he had lapses, and against the best fighters he faced, he paid. Bonavena badly stunned him and kept that fight terribly close. Ali lost FOTC, but did tons of damage doing so. Joe was threshed by Foreman, twice. Couldn't defend himself well enough against Ali to keep his eyes open in Thrilla, a fight that also saw him wobbled. In the rematch, the middle fight, got hit and wobbled by Ali after hooking himself off balance.

My point stands. I dont see the beast that others do when "FOTC Frazier" is brought up. I just see a very angry, determined, superbly conditioned Joe Frazier, bringing in the same skills and defects he showed throughout his prime. This is the fundamental area where we disagree-I dont believe more determined, angrier, better conditioned and faster helps him take the punches he always would have eaten any better.

He's a great fighter, and in an actual fight, may very well prove me wrong. But I'd put my money on the same styles that did him in to beat him again.

 

:conf Seems like whenever it's convenient, people want to merge Liston and Foreman together like they were so particularly similar past their punching power. I don't get it, myself. Scowl + Big Punch =ListoForeman morph?

 

Liston and Foreman have more similarities than being good punchers.

Both good jabs, both aggressive styles, both mean bullies in the ring, both like to swing away to hurt an opponent.

I would argue Foreman the more powerful puncher, but Liston the more complete fighter. If George can overwhelm a fighter, its not at all a stretch to see Liston also doing well.