Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

Didn't say it'd be a stretch...but suffice it to say I really don't see them as similarly as you see them at all. I don't think one equals the other in a h2h match.

 

I dont believe any fighter equals another. You are 100% right.

 

I think it would have helped Fraziers legacy to have patterson and liston on his resume. If frazier had beat these as well as foster and ali (like he did) fraziers career would have matched marcianos achievements- especialy had he retired before fighting foreman!

Maybe cloverlay were playing it safe, i dont know but these fights were not made or saught in the same way jacobs saught holmes for tyson. maybe they did not happen because safer fight could be made for as much money?

A lot of fans asume liston was capable of anything foreman did but i think this is lazy. Firstly frazier never was the same after the first ali fight so foeman did not beat anything like the guy who ellis and ali met. remember george could not ko peralta (who was kod by pastrano) but could ko frazier after joe had been through the war with ali.

Secondly, how many guys who hit as hard as frazier did foreman fight?

Thirdly, if joes philly counter part leotis martin, could ace Liston why not the dadddy of the philly gyms himself?

Basicly i would like more people to asses the "pre ali" joe frazier when assesing his strengths. At that point only bonanvena hurt him and he outstrengthed a guy liston should have fought -chuvalo. Liston blew away patterson and people get carried away. ingo had already softened floyds resisitance so sonny benefited from some of the same kudos george enjoyed when he beat frazier.
its entirely speculation peak for peak but I go for frazier. thats who my money would be on.

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I believe Liston thought he would beat Frazier, and easily...Didn't he have a qoute something about 'shooting fish in a barrel' re a fight with Frazier? I think very highly of Frazier, one of my favorites of all time...but Liston is all wrong for him.

 

Exactly, the two had distinctively different styles and different weaknesses.

Foreman was a quick, all-out frontrunner whose main weakness was his questionable stamina down the stretch. His intensity and free-swinging attack made him much better suited to keep someone like Frazier at a distance and unable to get inside.

Liston was a more plodding, methodical fighter who looked to work his jab, and had questionable heart. His style would've given someone like Frazier ample opportunity to get inside and work.

 

This argument doesn't make much sense. Frazier's stock-in-trade was slipping jabs, and he was able to consistently slip far superior jabs like Ali's. Foreman beat Frazier by disregarding the jab and just letting the bombs fly.

The fact that the jab was such a primary weapon for Liston is a detriment to him in this fight, not an advantage.

 

yet liston flattened patterson twice without first opening him up with the jab. liston clubbed floyd whilst holding him the first time and launched floyd with lead upercuts the second time. admitedly floyd froze both times but liston showed he could time lead power shots without them coming behind the jab.

even so IMO the heat and pace PEAK frazier would put on liston would upset the timing required to sufficiently steady frazier on the way in. joes feints were prety hard to read. there is no way frazier freezes like patterson did with liston and there is no way the 1969-71 frazier crumbles like the more shopworn, fragile version did against george. At his best Fraziers hook was pin point and he could land it at any range, always making an impresion. sure liston was heavy handed and intimidating, maybe he could stun frazier like bonavena did but he would still be up against a lot more pace, power and guts than he EVER experienced during his time.

 

He definitely tried and had the ability to slip a jab. But against the best jabbers he faced, he didn't do so to very much success. Ali found him with the jab more than his jab was slipped. Foreman got his own jab home without too much difficulty.

If your jab was at all lacking, he'd be able to handle it defensively. But, sorry, the film shows that if you had a legendary jab, you could hit Joe with it. Thats why its one of the things you'd need. Foreman did more boxing in both fights than people seem to be acknowledging.

 

Actually, Liston did fend off Patterson with the jab first before unloading the bombs. Note the commentator even makes mention of his left-hand work at 0:48 of this vid:
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How you can say that when one of his biggest keys to victory in the first Ali fight was to slip the jab and counter with left hooks? Plus he spent most of the middle rounds of the Thrilla inside of Ali's jab and on his chest.

Foreman actually did have difficulty when he stood away and tried to jab at the start of the fight, and didn't take over until he switched the lead powerpunches about halfway through the first round and just wailed away.
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I love the fake sound effects. yes liston came in behind his jab center ring but he didnt pin floyed down with it for powershots in the way he did agaist albert "quickfall" westfall. against floyd the jab was less effective. it was lead power shots off the ropes after manhandling patterson off balence that he caught him. he hurt floyd inside.

 

Prime vs Prime its a 50/50 Joe could take a punch and hand out a punch that could very well KO Sonny, Sonny had great power but I wonder how much of Liston was the real deal vs how much was mob control.

 

sonny was the real deal alright. mob control amounts to the mob leaching off the profits and having extra undeclared intrests in fighters and titlefights. liston was knocking guys out for real, its plain to see. he also quit in two fights but that was down to him both times.

 

That was indeed his game plan. He still got hit rather often in the face through the fight with Ali's left hand. That applies to both Thrilla and FOTC.

He set up both uppercuts in the first round with left leads. He also lands a hard left jab-right hand combo in between the knockdowns. In the second round he more or less went balls to the wall, but Frazier being occupied with Foremans left got him floored in the 1st.

 

Exactly, while Mercante allowed Foreman to maul, push and shove Joe away to create his own punching room. Even in the condition that he was, Joe did OK for the first minute before George's wrestling tactics took over the fight.

Pre-FOTC Frazier wouldn't be scared and wouldn't crumble against Liston. Also, Joe's penchant for starting slow wouldn't factor against the slower Liston, especially considering Ali's hand and foot speed was the measuring stick for heavyweights of that time.

Foreman doesn't knock down this version of Frazier as frequently as he did in 73, perhaps once or twice within two wrouds, and I'd bet on a well conditioned Frazier to take him into much deeper water where the fight is in his favour.