Where is Holyfield on your ATG Heavyweight list?

If Holy wasn't the linear champ then he wasn't the man simple as

Screw Boxrec - I have a mind of my own

You can't tell me that Holyfield's win against Buster is worth anything - come on man he lied down - you're old enough to know better

I don't care what magoo said (he's a knob) Holyfield's best fight was the first Bowe fight - it was just that Bowe was better

- thats my point about after the first Bowe fight the man was falling apart - Hepititus, then a heart condition - he had so many illnesses what was all that about - funny how these excuses always come around after a defeat isn't it

Tyson wasn't a "world" champion at all at that time - he was just an alphabet boy at that time I'm afraid

Foreman may have throw a one in a million shot at a guy with an already heavily questioned jaw and won - fair dues - but for the previous 9 rounds he was being splattered around - Foreman's balance was just awful in his comeback - every time he went for a big shot he was almost falling over swaying all over the place - infact the only time I saw him land the big ones properly without nearly falling over was the 2 one-two's he toppled Moorer with

Holmes had a successful comeback?? Nearly won a belt back???? He damn near won the linear title back from Holy!!! Thats my point!!??

AAAAAGGGGGAAAAAAAIIIIIINNNNNN!!!!!!! BOWE WAS KNACKERED BY THE TIME HE FACED GOLOTA!!!! BUT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE AT THEIR WORST - WE'RE COMPARING WHEN THEY'RE AT THEIR BEST - BOWE AT HIS BEST BEAT HOLY AT HIS BEST!!!! THATS ALL I NEED TO KNOW

I was being sarcastic about the Ali thing to illustrate how ridiculous the point was that I was answering - come on keep up atsch

You say I'm biased?? Well clearly??? I think Bowe was better so clearly I'm going to be biased in his favour?? Whats your point??

 

Opinion is weaker than evidence so head to head lists will always be of weaker arguments. Dempsey at 2 is absolutely laughable.

 

I have Holyfield at number 7 on my all time great list. He was one of the best heavyweights of the 90's which was a very competitive era for the division. His longevity combined with an excellent resume, despite some inconsistency earn him a high ranking in my opinion.

 

Why dont you just say Bowe is the better fighter head to head. I would agree with that. Bowe at his best could always beat Evander Holyfield at his I believe, Bowe was a bigger stronger version of Holy in some respects. That doesnt mean hes ranked higher. You yourself said Holyfield's resume is deeper, I think thats the purpose of this thread. Regardless how good or bad Tyson, Foreman, Holmes and Moorer were at the time, those wins still trump 99% of Bowes resume, so you couldnt possibly rank him lower than Bowe.

 

Yeah, and Duran beat Hagler atsch

Well, that was probably closer if anything!

 

Okay, I take back whatever you feel was an insult, but you've been pretty obnoxious yourself..

 

[quote

Rather than going back and forth, I'll bow out of here by reposting a comment made by Tommy gun earlier in this thread, and one that I happen to agree with, as it sums the argument up nicely.. See below.

End of thread......

 

The historic arguement for fighters like Joe Lewis and rocky is unfair. There were big guys around in their time, but heavyweights were 190-205 until the late sixties. They never fought big guys of the calibre of Lennox and Riddick in an era of 220-235 fighters. Ali and holmes would beat holyfield for me of the historic earlier fighters. The others are really hard to say. Holyfield struggled with big guys who could keep him at distance with a jab so Liston is another who might trouble him. I think he would get to rocky and joe lewis. I am sure he could take their shots, I think they would struggle with his. The James Toney lost he was well passed it.

Ali
Holmes
Lewis
A young Tyson
Liston
Foreman
Bowe

Holyfield, Joe Lewis, Joe Fraser, Vital or his brother after 2009, not sure who wins these fights.

Dempsey
Turney
Witherspoon
Lyle
Mercer

Young, Jefferies, Sharkey, Big Finn, Paterson, Machen

1947 Walcott who manages not to showboat?
Rocky

 

To be fair to the historic fighter I believe they had lighter gloves as well as fighting 15 rounds. So I am just putting them into todays boxing ring and rating them. light gloves suit smaller heavies to my mind.

 

I would argue that point a little. Bowe didnt just have one great night. It doesnt necessarily take a winning effort or a great opponent to show the stuff he had. He showed some stuff against Gonzalez Cooper, Seldon, and Ferguson, and also in the second Holyfield fight. Bowe was clearly a great fighter, and it didnt take Holyfield to show that in my opinion.

 

Easy top 10, the real debate is whether he's in the top half or the bottom half. I like to place him in at #5 or so.

 

Yes, he looked awesome at destroying second tier opponents, but I think the general point of Tommy gun's statement, is that he had one or perhaps two notable moments against the upper tier of his divsion, where as Holyfield had several.

 

holyfield is in 'pick em' fights with lots of the top ten atg heavys i think, you can put up a great argument for him in sooo many head to head clashes...as you can with bowe in his 5 minute peak haha..but holys achievements will always be so much more than bowes because his competition was much stiffer, even though bowe beat him 2 out of 3....even holys derided victorys over old holmes and old foreman are now given a damn sight more shine with the passing of time, given what holmes and foreman continued doing...

 

Opinion is saying it as you see it before your very eyes - direct visual evidence - better in any sense than simply quoting a few stats and naming people as champions who were neither genuine linear champions, or well conditioned, or young and in prime or in form as quality opposition -

PS Dempsey is laughable at 2??? Dempsey was considered almost universally as number one or there or there abouts until Ali came along - I suppose you're one of those revisionists who drop him completely out of the top ten on the back of him not facing Harry Wills??

 

Thats what I have been saying all along??? That's the one thing that all these idiots just can't accept - that all there bullsh1t theories about 'resume' mean jack when it comes to who won when they were both at their best - it basically flies in the face of the whole method of reasoning over these sort of things - Simply put if your talking about Muhammad Ali - you're thinking the Ali of Cleveland Williams - you don't think about the version who say lost to Norton or whatever??