Battle of the Joes, Louis vs Frazier?

I think Louis.

 

Largley irrelevant really.

Godoy used predominantly negative tactics. He is not a good analogue for Frazier and there are probably better ones among Louis's oponents.

 

Louis.

Frazier is generally under rated against punchers though and the relentless Frazier that beat Ali certainly has a chance. I just see him taking too much punishment on the way in.

Joe's one comment about not liking being crowded gets made too much of. Similar to D'amato's "quote" about Foreman battering every swarmer who ever lived, I mean really it's just an opinion.

Louis is much more vulnerable against movers than swarmers. How many swarmers or come forward fighters bothered him when he was anywhere near his best? Now, how many boxers did? Hell, a bald Louis in his last pro fight put up a more than respectable performance against a peak Marciano who is imo the greatest swarmer of all time.

 

Fraziers tactics may be superior but they are also criticaly different. A lot of the problems that Godoy presented were by not fighting as oposed to bringing pressure.

 

hate bring up tony galento but i haven't seen his name yet. frazier threw shorter, more consistent and more powerful hooks. now galento was subsequently pounded nearly to death after the left hook but it still landed and still knocked joe on his ass.

i love the posts and echo many of the statements mentioned but for me, if frazier makes it past the 4th, he starts grinding louis to the head and body. frazier's eyes are closed by the end but he keeps swinging and makes louis uncomfortable enough to earn a hard fought split decision

 

Indeed this is true, and very few greats (if any) are always at their absolute best in the opening round. Louis was known to take a nap in his dressing room before fights, and was actually criticized himself for starting slow a few times. He got staggered in the first by both Galento and Mauriello (which merely served to wake him up), and dropped in the opening stanza by Braddock, and in his first bouts with Buddy Baer and Walcott. 11 official first round knockouts, five in title defenses is clearly nothing to sneeze at, but projecting everything on the assumption that Frazier would be certain to get caught cold is something of a lazy convenience.

Godoy himself was not a particularly fast starter, yet came to Louis from the opening bell without paying an immediate price.

Again, my only objective here is to dispel the notion that Frazier was a Duane Bobick, invariably doomed to succumb in the first round if caught.

 

Where Tony really blew that one was by reverting to street fighter mode following that knockdown. His corner instructed him emphatically to stay low so that the punches of Louis went over his head, but Galento figured he was now the boss of the situation, and paid for it. We know Smoke would never abandon the bob and weave, as that tactic turned him from contender to champion.

I think a 1969-1971 Frazier does get beyond that point. Even in Jamaica, he was on his feet at the end, after six knockdowns. Pastor rallied from five knockdowns in the first two rounds of his title rematch with Louis. Presumably, we're discussing peak for peak, not the Bomber against a post FOTC Frazier, but a much more difficult man to stop.

 

Gotta go with Louis, but Frazier is a very live threat. Frazier on a good night beats Louis on an off night.

 

Frazier is a live live man. I tend to think Marciano is far more suited against Louis but that's another argument. Either man can take the other one out fairly early, but most likely Louis sharper punching will do Joe in. I think Louis wins 6 or 7 out of 10 times.

 

So did I...

20 years ago, in 1990, I was 16 years old, and would have readily picked Joe Louis, due to how he drastically out rated Frazier by most of the surviving experts at the time...But after reviewing their styles on several occasions, this is really starting to looking like bad chemistry for the brown bomber.. To clarify, I am not writing off Louis, and he very well may have won this fight, but when comparing his deficiencies to Frazier's strengths, things do not ad up mathematically in his favor. Louis was often dropped by left hookers, and in all honesty ( not to turn this into a race thing ), did not fare well against black men, usually... Frazier was very powerful, had far more hand speed than Louis's best opponents, and his awkward style, workrate, and ability to go 15 rounds under extreme pressure, is a nasty cocktail for Louis.... JL, was dropped by far lesser men like Braddock, Baer, and Galento... Most of those were left hooks.... It's like taking a man who's soft spot was right hands, and placing him in the ring with Earnie Shavers, and in fact we did see such an instance, when Larry Holmes fought Shavers himself.... The result was a victory for Holmes in a bout that very nearly ended in defeat.... The difference here is that both Joe louis and Joe Frazier were all time greats, whereas, Shavers was not an all time great, and any time that you have an all time great who has another's number, a come from behind win, is not something to bank on.....