McVey and Mendoza going mental again

Jack Johnson was THE premier fighter of an era, and I think that's the most you can really
say for any top flight fighter with any good degree of certainty.

The FACTS suggest Johnson was almost continuously worthy of being considered the top fighter for a period of 6-10 years.

I'm not sure what these "fictions" are that you mention ?
Jack Johnson was the top HW of an era, as you admit. What more can any fighter do ?

 

Johnson is now the logical opponent for Champion
Jeffries.
Easily the master of his race at the boxer’s game, possessed
of undeniable ability. . . . The color line gag does not go
now. It is “pay or play” in the fighting business. Johnson
has met all comers in his class: has defeated each and
every one. . . . Jeffries thus far has met all comers. Will he
turn down this one? Hardly. He cannot afford to do it. . . .
The public . . . demands a fight from the champion on behalf
of Jack Johnson. Jeffries must heed the call. He wants
one hard fight for the championship to show he is in that
exalted position by ability as well as by the kindness of nature.
Johnson is the man who will give him a chance to
show the best that is in him. If he can beat the negro, Jeff​

need never fight again.Los Angeles Times August 1903

 

I think your thread has highlighted the fact that Johnson was a very live contender , some years earlier than was previously thought by many posters.
I've recently seen a couple of clippings that indicate that Johnson knocked Hart allmost out of the ring during their fight.
Hart must be commended for his grit in taking the punishment without flinching ,whatever the merits of the verdict.

 

Well, of course I find Mendoza somewhat disturbed at the best of times, but recently he has become allmost rabid .

I've been pulled up, and corrected plenty of times by Yourself,Old Fogey, Matt,Janitor, and many others .

The thing is when you are wrong ,and as blatantly wrong as Mendoza has been in this thread and its cousin ,its best to make a clean breast of it, and admit you are in error.

That way you retain a measure of respect ,and credibility.

I am an average poster, there are some young guys on here that consistantly take the play away from me, Manassa, for example ,and Greg Pater is very astute for a young un too.

I correspond privately with Chris Pontius, we disagree on many things,Dempsey,Johnson ,and the merits of Joe Frazier, but we are cordial and friendly allways.

Mendoza, and myself are not destined to be in that category I fear.

 

Get over yourself. You obsess about me. I provide real sources. links and post news paper article here to back up my points. You quote stuff out of context, rely on Wiki ( when wiki is wrong which is funny ) and quote books out of context to make your points. You also do not reply to my direct questions!

 

How about as champion fight the best talent out there? If a champion is defined by meeting the best out there and soundly defeating them, Johnson's title reign should rate at the bottom of the barrel.

Johnson flat out ducked Langford, Mcvey, and Jeanette. He did not fight Smith in a title bout but when the two got together for four round exhibition match I posted the what happened. Smith kicked his butt. No fight with Jeff Clark either, who likely deserved a title match.

As champion Johnson was embarrassed by an older middle who some news press feels out boxed him, he was floored by another middle in Ketchel, and lucky to escape with a draw vs. Jim Battling Johnson. The Moran fight was close, and Moran was nothing special. When Johnson finally lost to Willard he claims he threw the fight.

Not exactly legendary stuff. Those who think I'm wrong here besides McVey, say so. I have plenty to back up my positions on everything I wrote in this post.

 

Johnson was the premier heavyweight in an awful era. If you want to argue he was better than Jeffries, go ahead. Jeffries was a scrub who went life and death with middleweight neanderthals... something Johnson had occasion to do, also. I still do not see how the performances versus Choynski, Hart, O'Brien, Ketchell and Johnson can be so readily whitewashed. I have heard both how Johnson was too green against Choynski but how his real record was also incomplete and that he had many more fights by then. The best examination of the Hart fight came from Pollack, which again casts doubt to Johnson's championship abilities or at least consistency. I, for one, do not credit the man for his indifference to his profession. Again, O'Brien holds his own but we supposed to credit Johnson for his unprofessionalism and indifference. The Ketchell fix was in, certainly, I am also led to believe. And against Johnson, any injury claim saves his championship, in a fight where the press and French public thought he did little to preserve such. Yes, every weak-ass performance of his has a weak-ass excuse.

 

I thought you were busy?
Seriously, keep it coming, every oyster needs grit to make a pearl.:good

 

This thread is about Jack Johnson as a CHALLENGER, and the fact that he was 30 years old before he got his chance at the title, having been avoided for many years.
During Johnson's time as a standout CHALLENGER for Jeffries title he defeated.
Fred Russell
Denver Ed Martin
Sam McVey x3
Joe Jeanette
Frank Childs x2
George Gardner
Joe Butler
Sandy Ferguson x3
Black Bill
Joe Kennedy
Bill Lang
Bob Fitzsimmons
Peter Felix
Jim Flynn
Young Peter Jackson.

Unforgiven's point is irrefutable.

As Champion Jeffries , DID NOT FIGHT "THE BEST OUT THERE",THE BEST WAS JACK JOHNSON, AND JEFFRIES RETIRED RATHER THAN FACE HIM.

 

The facts are perfectly stated here. But your dealing with a select few who who believe the press, ring results, and films lie. This group will not take up the arguments on the given data. How can they? Instead, they will regurgitate passages from books that have nothing what so ever to do with the performances in the ring on the key fights you mention.

 

Well, Mcvey was a teenager, Jeanette a raw novice with a sub .500 record, and Langford but 156 pounds. Fitz was way past it and went into the fight with an injury. FACTS!!!! Hardly impressive victories when you examine the facts! Care to refute this McVey?

Now, the most seasoned fighters near Johnson's size, with some power and ability were Choynski, Griffin, Klondike, and Hart. Johnson's record here? 1 win, 4 losses, 3 draws!!!!!And these guys were the stiffest challenges for Johnson before he became champion. 1 win in 8? Bawhahaha.

The only other heavyweight you listed who could be considered as a top level guy was Martin, and he had a glass body.

 

Johnson was Champion from 26th Dec 1908 [Boxing Day],, until 5th April 1915.
Jeff Clarks record during this reign was as follows .

[I list his principal bouts].
1908.The same day Johnson won the heavyweight title Clark beat Peter Maher on pts .Maher was an alcoholic , 40 years old and had lost 4 of his last 6 fights ,being kod in 2 rds during this period , by Kid McCoy and Marvin Hart.
Clark lost 2 fights to Welterweight Dixie kid in 1908 one of them by ko.

Clark fought Maher twice more in 1909 winning the NWS in both.
Clark lost a further 2 fights to Dixie Kid,in 1909.
Clark draws with Christy Williams 2-2-0,Willimas was a welter weight whose complete record is w3 l 13 d 4.
Clark does beat Battling Jim Johnson over 6rds, but Johnson is a 3 fight novice.
1910
Clark fights welter Christy Williams twice more winning both.
Clark fights Sam Langford and is kod in 2 rds being floored 5 times.
Clark gets a draw with Joe Jeanette.

1911
Clark draws with Middleweight Frank Mantell
Clark draws with Welterweight Kyle Whitney 25-6-9
Clark beats Jim Barry
Clark beats Light heavyweight Battling Levinsky twice.
Clark beats 7 fight novice Luther McCarty.

1912
Clark draws with Kid Cotton 5-2-0 Cotton is a sparring partner for Jack Johnson.
Clark beats Joe Jeanette nws 6rds.Good Win

1913
Clark loses to Jeanette dec 6 rds

Clark draws with middleweight Jack Twin Sullivan.
Clark draws with 9 fight Harry Wills.
Clark fights Joe Jeanette ,the referee calls it a no contest, because Jeanette ,though outclassing Clark, is making no effort to finish him.

Clark draws with middleweight Vic Hansen .
Clark draws with Kid Cotton 5-4-0

1914 Clark beats Sam Langford 10rds.Probably Clark's best win.

1915 Clark draws with Rough House Ware 1-4-4

These fights occurred during the time frame that Johnson was Champion.

When should Johnson have fought Clark?

From the 2nd Sept 1912 until 26th Oct 1914 Clark beat no one of any note.
From 26th of Oct 1914 until Johnson's defeat by Willard April 5th 1915 , Clark beat no one of any note.
Clark beat Langford once and Jeanette once ,during the time Johnson was Champion,but he also lost to both, once to Langford by brutal 2rds Ko once to Jeanette by dec ,and once ,when the fight against Jeanette is called off because Jeanette is carrying Clark.
I say Clark was never a viable contender for Johnson's title.
Now prove me wrong.