Hopkins MW ATG

Brighton bomber · Oct 24, 2010

bailey said: ↑

Facts are facts, and I pointed them out. As they say, If the truth offends.

This thread is about Hopkins, not Hagler or Monzon, and would answer questions about them on the threads about them.
As for Tarver lets tell the whole true story. Tarver was having to drop additional weight after filming the Rocky film, but lets not call Tarver an ATG. He was a limited fighter who got to Jones first and lost when Jones was at his worst, straight from HW, Tarver also lost to Harding and Johnson who at that time had 9 losses and 2 draws :nut. So I dont think Tarver was anything that special

I know the details and the Hopkins nuthuggers tell the story better each time I read it on here. But lets remember something else, that Hopkins is one of the most well prepared fighters going, who stays busy in training and keeps his weight down, so lets not blow the whole thing out of proportion. Hopkins got put down twice and couldnt get the victory

We also know, in Hopkins favour that later in Jones career he was known to use a Ped.

So do you think the Hopkins who lost to Jones and drew with Mercado would have done better? I dont

In terms of longevity it is excellent, and he was dominant for a long time, but he avoided Sturm (though Sturm did come around later in Hopkins career in fairness).
Its just I find too many smaller fighters on his resume, to call it really great, and the losses to Taylor really show up how much he relied on being the bigger stronger fighter. He wasnt impressive against fast 2 handed fighters his own size
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This thread is about where Hopkins standing is as an ATG middleweight. For a fair assesement of his ranking you have to compare him to his peers which would include Hagler, Monzon and any other middleweight you would regard as an ATG, you can't just ignore their exsistence to justify your opinion. To assess anything's worth you must use a comparison to judge it's worth otherwise you are judging it upon a set of preconceived criteria which is fundamentally flawed.

I will concede that Tarver is not great but he was widely regarded as the best light heavy at that time. And before Hopkins moved up to light heavy he was often accused of picking on smaller men by critics like yourself. Why so harshly judge Hopkins but not use the same criteria when judging Monzon and Hagler who also had good win against smaller men and unlike Hopkins never moved up to light heavyweight. So I would surmise that Hopkins victory over Tarver was a significant achievement.

I am not blowing anything out of proportion, from my opinion you are belittling the circumstances to fit your point of view. While Hopkins is a consummate professional and is in condition year round being unprepared for a fight is not just about conditioning. He had not studied his opponent and so would not have had sufficient time to develop the best strategy for victory. The altitude would have had a very negative effect upon his response time and stamina. It is a medical fact that an altitude above 7000 feet results in the bodies oxygen supply being severely effected. The rematch shows a truer assessment of each fighters abilities, as both had time to prepare and were not disadvantaged due to the altitude. Hopkins only lost 1 round in the rematch.

And how the hell does Jones being on a PED's favour Hopkins. :huh Even if Jones was using performance enhancing drugs it would mean Jones victory was tainted so the loss should be struck from his record. If anything it should been seen as a positive as he went the distance with a fighter with an unfair advantage. To claim this a negative is ridiculous and shows a level of bias that is absurd.

He never avoided Sturm to suggest other wise is foolish. Sturm unfairly lost to De La Hoya but nobody wanted Hopkins to fight Sturm, the fight was never in demand by anyone. Sturm only got any notable wins after facing Oscar and so was only deemed a contender for a very short period of Hopkins middleweight reign.

While I agree many of his best wins were against men from lower weights you could only see this being detrimental to his standing if his peers at middleweight had not done the same.
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Brighton bomber · Oct 24, 2010

realsoulja said: ↑

Hopkins is arguably top 5 Middleweights. Name 5 middleweights that have achieved more than him.
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Based upon a previous thread of his, Felix Sturm would probably be one of his 5 better middleweights. Says everything about his judgement. atsch

Flash Jab · Oct 24, 2010

Hopkins in top 5, but Hagler would **** him up.

bailey · Oct 24, 2010

realsoulja said: ↑

Hopkins is arguably top 5 Middleweights. Name 5 middleweights that have achieved more than him.
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We can save that for another thread asking us to list our top 5 MWs, this thread is based on Hopkins

bailey · Oct 24, 2010

Brighton bomber said: ↑

bailey said: ↑

This thread is about where Hopkins standing is as an ATG middleweight. For a fair assesement of his ranking you have to compare him to his peers which would include Hagler, Monzon and any other middleweight you would regard as an ATG, you can't just ignore their exsistence to justify your opinion. To assess anything's worth you must use a comparison to judge it's worth otherwise you are judging it upon a set of preconceived criteria which is fundamentally flawed.

I will concede that Tarver is not great but he was widely regarded as the best light heavy at that time. And before Hopkins moved up to light heavy he was often accused of picking on smaller men by critics like yourself. Why so harshly judge Hopkins but not use the same criteria when judging Monzon and Hagler who also had good win against smaller men and unlike Hopkins never moved up to light heavyweight. So I would surmise that Hopkins victory over Tarver was a significant achievement.

I am not blowing anything out of proportion, from my opinion you are belittling the circumstances to fit your point of view. While Hopkins is a consummate professional and is in condition year round being unprepared for a fight is not just about conditioning. He had not studied his opponent and so would not have had sufficient time to develop the best strategy for victory. The altitude would have had a very negative effect upon his response time and stamina. It is a medical fact that an altitude above 7000 feet results in the bodies oxygen supply being severely effected. The rematch shows a truer assessment of each fighters abilities, as both had time to prepare and were not disadvantaged due to the altitude. Hopkins only lost 1 round in the rematch.

And how the hell does Jones being on a PED's favour Hopkins. :huh Even if Jones was using performance enhancing drugs it would mean Jones victory was tainted so the loss should be struck from his record. If anything it should been seen as a positive as he went the distance with a fighter with an unfair advantage. To claim this a negative is ridiculous and shows a level of bias that is absurd.

He never avoided Sturm to suggest other wise is foolish. Sturm unfairly lost to De La Hoya but nobody wanted Hopkins to fight Sturm, the fight was never in demand by anyone. Sturm only got any notable wins after facing Oscar and so was only deemed a contender for a very short period of Hopkins middleweight reign.

While I agree many of his best wins were against men from lower weights you could only see this being detrimental to his standing if his peers at middleweight had not done the same.
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I was defending Hopkins when I mentioned about Jones having used PEDs, thats why I wrote in Hopkins favour, though probably didnt explain myself clearly. I was saying we dont know when Jones was or wasnt using, so I dont count the loss against Hopkins too much
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bailey · Oct 24, 2010

Brighton bomber said: ↑

Based upon a previous thread of his, Felix Sturm would probably be one of his 5 better middleweights. Says everything about his judgement. atsch
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Dont try and second guess my judgements minion.
I would say that if Hopkins fought and beat Sturm convincingly, I would have put it down as a very good win for Bernard, and would call it his best MW victory, for what Sturm has gone on to do

Brighton bomber · Oct 24, 2010

bailey said: ↑

We can save that for another thread asking us to list our top 5 MWs, this thread is based on Hopkins
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Once again you are conveniently side stepping the question. This thread is about Hopkins standing/ranking at middleweight and if he is a true ATG. This is not a thread about you focusing on what you perceive as negative aspects of his legacy to fit your set opinion. You can criticise him all you like but you must compare him to his peers to attain a logical standing.

Where do you rank Hopkins? Justify his ranking and his reign at middlewight through comparisons, not simply based upon your opinions. How else would you rank a fighter other than comparing him to those you would rank above or below him?

Brighton bomber · Oct 24, 2010

bailey said: ↑

Brighton bomber said: ↑

I was defending Hopkins when I mentioned about Jones having used PEDs, thats why I wrote in Hopkins favour, though probably didnt explain myself clearly. I was saying we dont know when Jones was or wasnt using, so I dont count the loss against Hopkins too much
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Ok I see that now, though is wasn't made clear. Not sure why you would bring it up as it does nothing to support your assessment of Hopkins. That is what threw me.
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bailey · Oct 24, 2010

Brighton bomber said: ↑

Once again you are conveniently side stepping the question. This thread is about Hopkins standing/ranking at middleweight and if he is a true ATG. This is not a thread about you focusing on what you perceive as negative aspects of his legacy to fit your set opinion. You can criticise him all you like but you must compare him to his peers to attain a logical standing.

Where do you rank Hopkins? Justify his ranking and his reign at middlewight through comparisons, not simply based upon your opinions. How else would you rank a fighter other than comparing him to those you would rank above or below him?
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All rankings are based on opinions.
So lets stay on the subject of Hopkins. If you want to make a top 10 MW thread, I will post on it for you. I would analyse all the MWs in question to give my usual unbias opinion. Is that not fair?

Brighton bomber · Oct 24, 2010

bailey said: ↑

All rankings are based on opinions.
So lets stay on the subject of Hopkins. If you want to make a top 10 MW thread, I will post on it for you. I would analyse all the MWs in question to give my usual unbias opinion. Is that not fair?
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Yes it's based upon opinions but some opinions can be justified while other cannot. Please justify your opinions on Hopkins in a rational way.

Why make another thread to re-phrase a question that is already in existence in this thread?

If you truly believe Hopkins is not a ATG then you must justify it by fairly comparing him to fighters that you would regard as ATG's.

bailey · Oct 24, 2010

Brighton bomber said: ↑

Yes it's based upon opinions but some opinions can be justified while other cannot. Please justify your opinions on Hopkins in a rational way.

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Opinions have been justified in a rational way. Read the post below

Why make another thread to re-phrase a question that is already in existence in this thread?

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Very well. the top MWs
J Taylor - He beat Hopkins twice
R Jones - He beat Hopkins once
S Mercado - He drew with Hopkins

Only joking. I will assess the MWs and give an answer at some point

If you truly believe Hopkins is not a ATG then you must justify it by fairly comparing him to fighters that you would regard as ATG's.

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I havent said that either

bailey said: ↑

:dead:dead What a completely sickening thread, you have started.
Hopkins MW reign is completed by fighting smaller fighters who were world champs in smaller divisions atsch.
1. He won the vacant IBF title, for beating the world beating Mercado
2. He won the WBC title from K Holmes, which was a fair win, but lets remember that Holmes had been beaten before and by Cherifi
3. He won the WBA title from Trinidad who was a former WW and had only had one MW fight previous and never did much at the weight after. Also there was a hand wrapping contraversy.
4. He won the WBO title from De La Hoya who had also only had one fight at MW (a highly disputed win) and who never fought as high in weight again.

Hopkins did have a good career run at MW but lets not forget the rest, that he only drew with Mercado first time round, lost to Jones and lost twice to J Taylor which really looks bad now. Hopkins resume has too many smaller fighters and names like Hakkar on it.

All the same he has made his place in history, but I think alot of the hype around Hopkins is because America loves a reformist, and Hopkins being a reformed criminal who became MW champ, fits the bill perfectly
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:deal. The enlarged parts show credit, but it needs to be kept in proportion. Look at who Hopkins beat to win his titles
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Swarmer · Oct 24, 2010

top 5; hard to pick between Greb, Monzon, Hagler, Robinson, and Hopkins as far as the top 5 MWs goes.

bernie4366 · Oct 25, 2010

Royal-T-Bag said: ↑

1 Hagler
2 Robinson
3 Monzon
4 Greb
5 Hopkins
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Hopkins would wreck Hagler, as would Monzon. Hagler is a superstar for fighting and losing to welterweights lol... SRL wouldn't be able to come up and take a title from a 40 yr old Hopkins, let alone a 33 yr old version. Hagler is crazy overrated.

PhillyPhan69 · Oct 25, 2010

1. Greb

2. Hagler
3. Monzon

4. Bob Fitzsimmons

5. SRR
6. Charley Burley

7. B-Hop
8. Dick Tiger

9. Mickey Walker
10. Stanley Ketchel

5 is probably as low as he can go, and he should be a lock for top 10

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164758&page=14

PhillyPhan69 · Oct 25, 2010

The_President said: ↑

Is their any footage posted in the Classic section of Greb?
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Not that I am aware of! To my knowledge there is no known footage of him in a fight..hopefully someday!

Go to you-tube and type his name in and all you will find is some training and a sparring video with retired Jack O Brian is not seen by most as any kind of indicator of his ability!

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