Supposing the judges voted Norton's way ?

Unless the judges were bought off, Norton would have won the 4th fight. Norton had Ali's number.

 

Ali's legacy would've been somewhat diminished. Realistically, the Norton/Young/Shavers decisions could've (in two cases should've) gone against him.

 

Agreed.

Definitely the Norton and Young fights could've and should've gone against Ali. Sadly, Ali had too many people on his payroll that wouldn't let him retire by feeding his ego. He should have retired after Manilla, and there was no need to face Holmes and Berbick.

 

Long Standing, probably Ali comes back for the fourth fight, and miraculously finds a way to edge Norton.Then fights Shavers, decisions him still, and loses to Larry Holmes in an early '78 fight.

 

If Norton got the decision odds are Ali gets a rematch, loses again , is inactive for eight months and then it depends on who he fights .. he was never regaining the title from Norton or Holmes .. Spinks never becomes champ ... Norton might reign till Holmes , especially if Ali fights and defets Shavers as his comeback fight, eliminating Shavers from Norton's trajectory ...

 

I don't know that he could have enjoyed any more favor with the judges and a WBC anxious to legitimize his championship in response to the one Leon Spinks won in the ring of battle, rather than awarded in a smoke filled room. If Ken had won that title in the ring from a reigning champion, then I believe Holmes would indeed have clinched his coronation on the scorecards after ten rounds.

However, if Norton had indeed been voted the new champion in Yankee Stadium, such a title change would have been even more controversial than Ali's retention of it was, and an immediate rematch would have resulted. Muhammad's legs had been severely injured by Inoki, but he had yet to undergo the neurological damage inflicted upon him by Shavers. He shut his mouth and worked very hard for the rematch with Leon, and was actually around 217 pounds in the days leading up to New Orleans. For Norton IV, he would have worked even harder, and could well have come in under 215, maybe even 212, and been prepared one more time to dance for 15 rounds. Following such an arduous effort though, he would retire, win or lose. For whatever it's worth though, I do believe he'd have won Norton IV by a close but clear UD. He was a great fighter, while Ken really wasn't.

 

Agreed on the Young bout and the judges may have sided against Jimmy out of disliking his overly defensive moves such as leaning out beyond the ropes. The 2nd and 3rd Norton goes have supporters on both sides with most scribes and those at ringside having no trouble with the decision to Ali in the second, and third for many coming down to the last round which Ken had no one to blame for losing but himself. In the first minute he threw all of one punch, a missed jab to four jabs landed by Ali. In the second minute he threw four punches and landed two to six jabs landed by Ali, and in the third he landed five heavier punches to three lighter ones by Ali and none of them overly hurt Muhammad. To give Kenny the deciding last round one has to pretend the first two minutes, won by Ali, didn't happen. Norton gave it away.

 

THis is just a thought, but imagine if Norton had got the controversial decision over not just Ali, but also over Holmes. I wonder how that would have shaken up everybody's views of Greatest fighter of all time?

 

It would probably have affected Holmes' status the most.

Ali was clearly past it and only in rare cases do I think fighters should be judged much on losses when they're in the mid 30's, especially someone who'd has as many tough fights as Ali. As for Norton, his losses to Foreman, Shavers and Cooney will always exclude him from being seen as a truly great fighter.

 

Hi all, I'm new around here!

Bokaj,
You say that "only in rare cases do I think fighters should be judged much on losses when they're in the mid 30's" and then say "As for Norton, his losses to Foreman, Shavers and Cooney will always exclude him from being seen as a truly great fighter"

Isn't there a contradiction there as the Shavers and Cooney losses took place when Norton was 35 & 37 respectively, mid 30s by anyone's calculations! Using your own logic, why should these exclude Norton from consideration as a truly great fighter?

As for the original question, I think if the judges had voted for Norton, he would obviously got the recgognition as champ that he deserved. Aside from that, probably a fourth Ali fight, which I would have expected Norton to win the most convincingly of all four fights (Ali wasn't getting any better by this stage). How long would have Norton have reigned? Depends who he fought and when...I think Foreman had his number, but he was knocked off by Young. Shavers? I think the pre-Holmes Norton had more resilience, fitness and desire than the March '79 version and may well have had enough to see Earnie off. It also deepnds when Norton fights Holmes...much earlier than '78 the odds swing toward Norton, imo.

I suspect that Norton makes 2/3 successful defences against Bobick/Young and possibly Shavers and/or maybe a couple of "routine" defences, bringing us up nicely to 9 June 78 at Caesars in Vegas.

Holmes wins, as we know, repeats the win in a rematch, Norton bows out at this point a lot more fulfilled man as a former linear champion with greater recognition than he receives today. Doesn't need or take the LeDoux, Cobb or Cooney fights and his reputation is even more intact.

 

Welcome!

That is a valid question. Those "rare" cases would be when a fighter peaks relatively late and Norton did. His peak are generally thought to be around 1973 to 1977 or 1978. He himself says he was at his best for his rubber match against Ali in 1976. So he was in his prime when he met Foreman and probably not that much past it when he faced Shavers and Cooney. It should also be taken into account how easily they all blasted him out.

Perhaps it's harsh on Kenny to make that much out of the losses to Shavers and Cooney (considering his age), but together with Foreman they were the only really big punchers he faced. And all of them crushed him.

 

really great thread! the only thing i'll throw in is my agreement with red cobra that he doesn't know how to retire. and he never, never EVER would have retired after a loss to norton imo. he only retired when he got his ass kicked twice in a row when shot to holy ****. he would have wanted to leave the series with norton on a win.

i honestly think ali clearly won the 2nd fight and would have found a way to win the 4th. norton and ali could have followed the same trajectory, just both faded a little earlier