George Foreman v Jack Dempsey

This thread got me thinking that George Foreman vs George Godfrey might be an interesting fight.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gOourrZGo8[/ame]

 

Lithium and creatine.
The Breakfast of champions...

 

The first patient minute and a half in Toledo, the most important bout of Dempsey's life, just after he'd been informed by Kearns that Doc had placed an all or nothing bet on the Mauler winning by a first round knockout, tells all one needs to know about how Jack could have knocked out Foreman.

Dempsey critic Frank Lotierzo writes, "He sure gets a lot of mileage for the one minute (actually minute and a half) he circled against Willard before moving in." But Lotierzo fails to mention that there is no footage in existence anywhere which suggests that Marciano ever could have applied and utilized that kind of mobility at all in any of his surviving bouts. (Fortunately, Rocky was never in a situation against huge opposition where he needed to.) We see Jack doing it just when it mattered the very most.

Lotierzo also erroneously claims that the larger Foreman lifted the smaller Frazier off his feet, while Jack the giant killer failed to do this to the huge Willard, and tries to cite this falsehood as proof George was the harder puncher.

Here, at 1:00, Foreman lands the final punch in Kingston, a left hook. Joe does not launch off his feet immediately, but delays for over a second before falling over onto his right knee and hands, well after any concussive momentum would have long dissipated.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn6KIwnQd2c[/ame]



Now, in Toldeo, Jack demonstrates what an authentic lifting off the feet with the upward force of a punch looks like against a monstrous target weighing up to 80 pounds more than himself. The clearest moment comes at 7:51, when the announcer comments, "It's bad for Willard, taking the hammer blows of the ring's greatest puncher..." Right at the instant he says "puncher" at 7:52, you can see Dempsey's hook bury into Willard's body, instantaneously hopping big Jess several inches skyward as he's simultaneously driven back towards his own corner. At 7:51, the bottom of Willard's right trunk leg is level with the bottom rope. In the next instant, as Jack's hook connects, the bottom of that trunk leg is now elevated halfway between the first and second ropes as the rest of his body identically lurches up from the impact. Here is filmed proof that Dempsey's power was in reality what Foreman's was in mythology. (Sure, Foreman was a deadly puncher who actually did lift people off their feet, but the final knockdown of Frazier in Jamaica is the most frequently cited example of this, and that really was nothing more than a delayed hop after Smoke was knocked sideways and off balance, not directly from the upward impact of a concussion inducing lift.)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3BTycNuY44[/ame]

Jack had the patience, mobility, elusiveness, stamina and late round power necessary to wear the big man down until he was ready to fall. George was excellent at cutting off the ring, but when he did, he'd be confronted with the firepower to keep him honest. An utterly shot Frazier 25 pounds over his best weight and over five years past his peak took Foreman through most of round five by moving his stubby, stocky, arthritic body with thick thighs and torso around the ring. Peralta showed twice that a peak Mauler would have been more than big enough to take the wide open Foreman into deep water and drown him, if George proved he could take Jack's Sunday Punch early like Tommy Gibbons did.

"These big slow guys are easy meat for me." George Foreman was one of those "big slow guys," considerably slower than Firpo, and defensively inferior as well. Jack and Luis showed they could win over the championship distance, and take down the likes of a Bill Brennan in 12 rounds for a full count. George never demonstrated late round prowess of this caliber.

If a six foot tall 196 pound aging 36 year old former LHW like Greg Peralta could take Foreman ten rounds twice (and only be prevented from taking George into the championship rounds by a dubiously premature stoppage to protect Foreman's reputation and sterling record), then what would the Dempsey piranha of Toldeo have done to him? (Levi Forte was another who proved one could take George into deep water while weighing less than 200 pounds.)

Dempsey KO 12 a very badly beaten up Foreman. Jack could hurt the wide open George as Lyle did, and his late round power against Brennan considerably exceeded that of Jimmy Young. Also like Young, he would exploit Foreman's wide open body by either beating him to the punch, or after outmaneuvering him. Speed kills, and George is at a horrible disadvantage here. His non existent defense would be a suicidal flaw.

 

really i think you must be joking...

george foreman 70-74 and 88-91 would destroy any version of jack dempsey.
styles make fights, no puncher in the history would survive exchanging blows against george foreman in his prime 72-74 .
not tyson,not marciano,not frazier,not DEMPSEY, not joe louis not even sonny liston

 

foreman wins by ko not a good match-up for dempsey

 

Dempsey was far more skilled than many realize. He was lightning fast and far from easy to hit ... if you watch the first half of the opening round v.s. Willard you see he really can move ... that being said my biggest issue w Dempsey is that when he did get hit he saw red and slugged ... he did not have the control to shift gears as we saw against Firpo ... if he used a similar style against Foreman I cannot see him making it through a round or two ..

The pre-exile Foreman had a career worth studying ... prior to Frazier 1 he actually used some boxing skills ... he had a strong , heavy jab .. he did not swing for the bleachers from the opening bell ... after he destroyed Frazier he turned pure slugger .. he regrouped a bit against Norton. If you watch that fight , Foreman fought a very smart opening round as did Norton ... Foreman fell apart in Zaire and the rest of his first career was the regression of a fighter .. he never went bck to the self-control trajectory he was on pre-title ...

That being said, Foreman KO in one or two. Way too strong for the much smaller Dempsey.

 

I think people are over-selling Foreman and underselling Dempsey. There's a reason Dempsey was rated so incredibly high by the old timers. He wasn't some raw brute but had quick and very good footwork, had excellent speed, was fearless and got great leverage on that hook.

Foreman meanwhile was fed an egregious list of no-hopers to start his career. It really was an abomination. The he went on a nice streak with what really was a downside and fastly fading Frazier and Norton, whose style and weaknesses were just all wrong for Foreman's style and strengths.

It's not that I would outright pick Jack, but I would not be amazed if he would pull this off.

 

A lot is being made about Dempsey beating Willard.

If Valuev-Haye happened a century ago, I have a feeling that Haye would have been talked about as accpomplishing mission impossible, beating a goliath who outweighed him by 100 lbs.

 

you are very wrong, i love jack dempsey, his style was incredible, but george foreman had the wrong style for him, dempsey would run around of foreman but early or later dempsey would exchange blows with george, and it would be his end. if firpo did hurt dempsey foreman would ko him in 1-2 rounds

 

i agree absolutely

 

That Willard in there is no better than Lou Savarese. **** just look at his physique. He's got flabby arms, soft chest and soggy chin. Many people are so much **** about him killing a guy in the ring but any HW today is capable of doing that if worn the same type of glove.

An oh, the Jack Johnson he beat is way way past prime and was unprepared.

 

So Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano, Riddick Bowe, Larry Holmes, Tony Tubbs, Tony Galento and innumerable other heavies with less than impressive physiques (by whatever measure) are crappy fighters.

The man-gaze is not a great barometer of fighters.

 

:huh

Frazier, Rocky, Bowe, and Holmes were in fine shape in their prime.

 

Georgie Benton said Frazier had the worst body of a heavyweight he ever saw.

Al Weill stated that Marciano was short, short armed, stoop shouldered and balding... but how he could hit.

Bowe was more often "soft" and more often than that "fat" than any hardened Frank Bruno type. Drove Futch mad how he couldnt consistently get in shape.

Holmes had a rather feminine pear-shape to him, with a distinct lack of definition and few extra pounds around the hips.

My point is that all were great fighters and none really passed the "eye-test"... even to their trainers. So don't degrade Jess Willard because he wasn't an Adonis. He was an extremely talented athlete, strong as hell and with great endurance.