That wasnt the point I was trying to make, when predicting the outcome of Cain/Lesnar people were expecting Brock to control the wrestling due to his size advanatge. Karelin is a classic example of size/power/speed and skill coming together while Lesnar is a classic example of a guy without the greatest technical skill still having some sucess due to his physical gifts. Besides that people always seem to overestimate the dominance of supposidly superior wrestlers when in reality thats not been the case since the days of Kerr/Coleman in the mid 90's. Just watch Mo/Feiajo and you'll see maybe the best wrestler in MMA have his takedowns stuffed in a similar fashion by a BJJ/MT fighter.
Most of the guys Lesnar went 106-5 against in college were just as big as he is. If you look at their resumes peak for peak in college wrestling you'd have to assume that Lesnar beats Velasquez nine out of ten. However, this isn't the peak time of their wrestling careers and most importantly this isn't even wrestling. What Lesnar does best is what he did to Mir and Carwin, but Velasquez is too good of an MMA FIGHTER (get it, NOT WRESTLER) to let him do that. Lets be clear; Lesnar has, always has had and likely always will have huge holes in his MMA game, but don't get ******ed and start saying that he's not even a good wrestler. He'll still win one sided fights against most of the UFC division with his one strong point just because it's that important and that much better than most of the guys out there.
While Lesnar wrestled in the HW division he was clearly one of the largest guys involved in it and that size advanatge was clearly an important part of his sucess. He was also wrestling in a comparatively weak era compaired to Cain, Stephen Neil was the only really big name he faced and he lost to him where as Konrad and Cormier were around during Cains era. I agree MMA is a very diffent enviroment but I think Brocks style as a wrestler was also part of the reason for his performances vs Cain and Carwin. From what I'v seen he was actually a more defencive wrestler dispite his "bull in a chinashop" rep from the WWE. He liked to use his size to stuff opponenats atempts before waiting for the gaps to appear for his own. The match vs Randy is a really good example of that I'd say with Lesnar showing very nice defence. The problem has come though when he's facing opponants with superior striking like Carwin and Cain. In those situations Brocks naturally defencive game isnt the best option, he tried it agenst Carwin with almost disasterous results and then vs Cain he came out aggresive to avoid that but was unable to capitalise. Cains first escape presented an opening that a more aggresive wrestler might have sucessfully followed up with another takedown. Lesnar isnt a poor wrestler but neither is he as gerat a wrestler as he's been hyped to be and even if he were expecting him to dominate every fight on the ground would be unrealistic. MMA has shown us many times down the years that a superior wrestlers game can be neutralised the same way a superior kickboxers or BJJ fighters game can be neutralised if an opponan brings the correct skills and gameplan.
I honestly dont know why i post on this forum , its littered with people who dont know enough about the invidual disciplines of MMA and have no perception of what it takes to mould yourself as an MMA fighter !!!! : Lesnar finished his amateur career as a two-time NJCAA This content is protected , 1998 NJCAA Heavyweight Champion, two-time NCAA This content is protected , two-time This content is protected Champion, and the 2000 NCAA heavyweight champion with a record of 1065 overall in four years of college Lesnar is **** at wrestling hey fella's :deal :good
I don't see anything wrong with what they said except perhaps that "Willard" comment (dunno who that is).
That all seems pretty but I'm not from the U.S. and I never understood americains obsession with college sport. But honestly, Lesnar wrestling skills compared to this guy ? [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Karelin[/ame]
This isnt really that new. Too much is made of his NCAA credentials which are frankly just collegiate level. Kurt Angle used to rountinely manhandle Brock in pure wrestling matches during training. This was common knowledge in the WWE. I was quite intrigued during that fight watching Brocks brand new technique of bending at the waist to take Cain down. Was rather amusing...
I cant agree with this. Mir has fairly decent BJJ although i think his black belt flatters him. As for his grappling no.
You realize Kurt Angle was an Olympic Gold Medalist, right? Literally the best single wrestler on the face of the planet at that time. You are right though, his shots looked, well, bad.
Black Belt flatters him? Based on what? He has a legit instructor who gave it to him (Ricardo Pires), and works with Drysdale in Vegas; plus results don't lie.
Of course i know that DUH! What Angle proved in the WWE is that technique beats brawn every day of the week. The same thing naturally has happened in the UFC. Which leads me to believe that despite Brock being a Division 1 champ his wrestling wasnt even on the level of say Chris Jericho let alone Angle.
Outside of MMA his blackbelt hasnt meant much at all. If it did we'd see Mir in all the big grappling tournys like the Mundials or ADCC instead we see him getting owned by Roy Nelson. Likewise in MMA i dont see him up with the Nog's and Werdum's of this world. Most of the time i see Mir pull guard in MMA he gets smashed to ****. Brock did it. Pe de Pano did it. Vera did it. Even Ian Freeman did it.
I've been trying to point this out for a while now, his shots have looked like ****, and his gas tank seems to be the same.. Wrestlers are generally going to be good at control, and have the gas to perform multiple takedowns in order to control on the ground for a sustained fight.. This is how their skills theoretically translate to MMA from wrestling. Brock hasn't shown this. His shots, after the first two have looked terrible. Form breakdown seems to be the result of a bad gas tank.. Bad gas tank can be the result of spending energy through nerves, and also sometimes when you get an early adrenaline rush, you spend yourself.. But these are usually marks of an amateur fighter.. So, its either Brock is an Amateur MMA fighter, or he has a horrible gas tank for a wrestler.. A horrible gas tank on a wrestler means bad wrestler.. Which one is it? Or is there something I'm missing?
Brock's CV looked good vs Herring. But he was able to fight at his own pace. Cain posed two problems for Brock. Firstly Cain has very good CV and fights at a fast pace. Secondly Brock was a bundle of nerves and tried to take the fight to Cain. Additionally his takedown attempts were nonsense and he merely tried to overpower Cain as opposed to shooting. Brock has gone as far as he can on his talent alone. But at the end of the day i dont think his background or skills will translate yet as he's been held to a lofty standard and naturally so because the UFC turned him into their champion. Personally i think he's between a rock and a hard place. Can he get better? Time isnt on his side. Will he be champ again? Wheres the motivation for that when he's already achieved that inside a handful of fights.
He was, yes, but he won the gold medal in 1996 and by the time he was wrestling Brock, probably 7 or 8 years later, he was not only a lot older, but badly broken down. Obviously he'd still be better than your average wrestler, but given Lesnar's physical advantages, he should have been holding his own against Angle. Lesnar's himself was an amatuer wrestler a decade ago but has taken massive amounts of drugs since then, had a long list of injuries and put himself through years of the WWE's punishing schedule. Whatever he achieved at amatuer level, has to be taken into perspective because there is such a big gap between those days and the present.