Overrated greats in order.........

Roberto Duran was great and dominant at lighweight and was part of the fab 4 with Hearns/Hagler/Leonard and even Benitez who was great also, but Duran lost to all of them, yet people rate him top 5 ever. If he were rated top 20-25 I would say he was not overrated-which is a great ranking all time, but to rate him top 5 ever, I think he is overrated. Which great did he beat to get to that ranking? Leonard? Ray fought Duran's fight because Duran go to Ray's head, but in the rematch and rubbermatch Ray won easily in an outclassing. Duran never knocked out a fellow great or dominantly beat another great, which is why a top 5-10 ranking does not make sense. I think he is great, just not that high up. He did fight them all, but so did Hearns and Hagler and Leonard, who are not rated top 5. If any of them should be rated top 5 it would be Leonard who beat them all. Ray is underrated.

 

While been floored a few times along the way.

 

Lopez ruled the worst division in boxing, Tszyu one of the deepest divisions at the same time.

Jofre is considered a TOP30 ATG. I've even seen him rated higher atsch. Fought exclusively in Brazil except for his 4-year run as a bantamweight champ. His resume is very weak. Don't tell me he beat a shot Saldivar who hadn't fought in 3 years and retired afterwards.

For the sake of argument, let's consider Jofre as if his career has just ended. Let's judge him by modern standards. Someone posts a thread on ESB "Is Eder Jofre HOF worthy? What are his best wins?"

What would you answer?

 

koki?
















just kiddin.

 

Medel (hard-punching contender who stopped Harada))
Eloy Sanchez (coming off a win over Jose Becerra, legit contender)
Johnny Caldwell (undefeated bantamweight champion)
Aoki (once defeated contender)
Caraballo (undefeated contender)

Plus...

Jose Legra (two time featherweight titleholder)
Vicente Saldivar (way past his best, but was younger than Jofre and got smoked)

Plus a whole host of other legit contenders like Fukiyama, Octavio Gomez, Frankie Crawford, Godfrey Stevens, Juan Antonio Lopez, Johnny Jamito, Pierro Rollo, Hernan Marques, et al who fought in a tough, tough era.

The only two losses Jofre suffered were close decision losses to an all time great in Harada, in the latter's backyard. Pretty impressive, and definitely HOF worthy, even if you don't think he warrants a spot in the top 30.

Now, quit avoiding the question and post a list of who you rate, so I can tear it apart and you can defend it.

 

I knew that was going to come up.

I think Akio Kameda might actually be related to his more famous namesakes. Not to sure, though.

 

Harada is considered an ATG because of his wins over Jofre. Catch 22.

4th fight, 4 months into his pro career, Tszyu fought Juan Laporte who was coming off close decision losses to Azumah Nelson and Hector Lopez.
6th fight, 9 months into his pro career, Tszyu demolishes future WBO champ Fuentes who lasted 10 rounds with Chavez before retiring on his stool.
In his 10th he beats former LW champ Bramble.
In his 11th fight he comes over to the US and fights Olympic silver medalist and Ring TOP10 rated tough guy Hector Lopez.
Destroys IBF champion Jake Rodriguez who had impressive wins over Murray, Oliveira, Scott. Ruins him.
Beats 2-weight champion Roger Mayweather.
Beats former IBF LW champion Ruelas.
Knocks out future champion Hurtado who outboxed Pernell Whitaker pretty easily and knocked him down 3-4 times before being caught by a big shot late in the fight(disgraceful refereeing)
First man to stop Miguel Angel Gonzalez who was the best LW for several years with 10+ defenses of his title, who was robbed of a win and becoming a 2-weight champion against a 35 year old Chavez for the WBC JWW title and lost a competitive decision against ODLH who was a monster at 140.
First man to knock out 3-weight champion Julio Cesar Chavez.
2 wins against WBA champion Shramba Mitchell.
Win over future 2-weight champion Zab Judah.
Win over Leija who later beats Bojado.
Wins over many legit contenders like Oktay Urkal (Olympic silver medalist, 2XWorld bronze medalist, european amateur champion), Ben Tackie, Angel Hernandez, Pedro Sanchez, Ian Piet Bergman, Hugo Pineda etc.

No padding on his resume like in the old days.

He is probably the only boxer to be RING Top10 rated in his 1st year as a pro.
Undisputed JWW champion.
Great Longevity: Champion for almost a decade.
14-2 against champions or HOFamers.
Over 50% of his fights are title fights.
World Amateur Champion
2X European Amateur Champion

And finally his skill which was considerable and proven on both the pro and amateur level. Tszyu was a master boxer with exceptional timing/accuracy and great offense (esp. underrated is his forward shuffle with which he closed the distance to his opponents in a split second).

You think a boxer like Finito Lopez who ruled a bogus division like minimumweight (200 boxers worldwide) is an ATG while Tszyu who at the same time ruled a division which was considered the deepest (2000 boxers worldwide) in boxing isn't?

1. Chavez
2. Tszyu
3. Cervantes
4. Pryor
5. Locche (who says i hate him)

 

Thing about KT is he could have turned pro much earlier and added a bunch more scalps to his resume. He was ready to fight for and take a title in his pro debut.

 

Alright, to play devil's advocate...

Laporte was on the tail end of his career, and a blown up featherweight. Was in the process of losing more than he was winning by this point. Plus, his style of throwing maybe ten punches a round was basically made to order for KT.

Bramble? See Laporte, although it could be argued that Livingstone was even more far gone than Juan was at this point in his career (he hadn't won any of his last four fights by this point)

Was given a very rough evening by an admittedly solid contender in Lopez, and the general consensus among press row that evening was that he was fortunate to scrape by with a decision after getting busted up by his opponent.

Rodriguez was a decent enough scalp, but was widely considered the weakest of the three junior welterweight titleholders.

Gets a nice win over Hurtado, but you could say that Hurtado kind of let him off the hook in the first when he had him hurt.

His challengers during the first reign: A past-prime Mayweather that he couldn't even stop, Corey Johnston (already schooled and stopped by Jonhston), undefeated but untested contenders in Bergman and Pineda (and the latter had KT on the floor) and the always inspiring Leonardo Mas.

Gets dropped and stopped by Vince Phillips. Beats a Ruelas that De La Hoya had already ruined, and stops him much later than Oscar did. Beats Chavez, who had been dominated by Willy Wise in his previous bout.

Gonzalez was a nice win, but he certainly wasn't the same fighter once he moved up to 140 (and was already beginning to slide during the tail end of his lightweight title reign). Hurtado's also a nice win, but you could argue that the Cuban let him off the hook in the first.

Judah might be his signature win, and kayo; but Zab's punch resistance was already being questioned by the time this fight took place.

Best performance is the Mitchell rematch, but you could certainly argue that Sharmba wasn't ever going to be considered an all-time great at the weight.

And, of course, he was forced to quit under the pressure of Hatton.

It's a good resume, but with the lack of a true, all time 140lb great that was defeated at or near his prime, and the comprehensive losses suffered to the likes of Hatton and Phillips, I would hesitate to rate him as highly as some others in what is one of the very deepest divisions in the history of this sport.

He's a great. He's HOF worthy. But I would argue that others should be rated more highly, is all.

 

But you call boxers like Akio Kameda, Lennox Blackmoore legit contenders? Not to mention some of the boxers you listed as legit contenders for Eder Jofre...

Leonardo Mas? Tszyu fought 14 The Ring Top10 rated JWW; Pryor only 5.

Mayweather was game for that fight as he was in certain fights (Chavez 2, Whitaker), played the spoiler and it was evident that Tszyu was still a little green and very stubborn.

There isn't anything comprehensive about the Hatton fight. Tszyu was rabbit punched, punched to the balls and wrestled to death when he was 35/36. And when he dropped Hatton with a left hook on the beltline they gave time to recover. With a proper ref that Tszyu demolishes that Hatton.
Phillips loss was a blip and that's not prime Tszyu. And it never happened again. Not to mention that Phillips was a good fighter as evidenced in his fight against Vernon Forrest who was much bigger than him. Phillips was 37 at the time. He was a decent fighter even in his mid-40s.

Many ATGs have more than 1 KO loss and decision losses to low-level fighters. But with Tszyu it's always Phillips, Phillips, Phillips.

Anyway, it was a nice discussion :thumbsup. Many here look at past eras with rose-colored glasses and the standing of some boxers of the past should definitely be reevaluated.

 

His reign over the 140 division i hate to say it lasted a total of 9 and half years. No One and i mean no one even comes ****ing close to that.

He also Unified that division something not even Chavez could do. And he Unified and was undisputed at a time when names like Gatti , PBF, Cotto were all in 140.

Now correct me if im wrong but having a world title at 140 for close to 10 years and Unifing it for 2 years and if it was not for his injury lets be honest he would have been the Undisputed Champ from 2001 til 2005 but They stripped Tszyu unfairly because of his injury so he never lost it in the Ring.

Now guys like Loche only held the belt 1968 til 72 which is four years but in that time he had 7 title fights with all but 1 in his home country.

Loi had only 2 ****ing world title fights Thats it 2 and he lost 1 and won 1. So he was Champ at 140 in his last ever fight then retired so he didnt even defend his title.

So even though Tszyu held a World title belt for over 9 years and a Ring Belt for 4 years and was Undisputed for virtually 4 years (Unless Injury)
He had 18 title fights 13 of them overseas.

Come on now be fair.

 

Loi had more than two title fights. he went 2-1 with Carlos ****ing Ortiz who I'm certain even Casamayor would consider a legitimate all time great. All world title fights. Plus he went 1-1-1 with Eddie Perkins who was a HOF'er in his own right.

Come on now. Be fair.

Anyway, that discussion was done as much for fun as anyone else. I have no problem rating KT as a top 10 at at 140lbs. He's well worthy of inclusion into the HOF. he's probably even a little under appreciated...I just don't rate him in my top five, and that's not a slag against him as much as it's an indication that 140lbs is a deep division.

 

NO. You are WRONG!!!!:twisted:

 

So Loi had 6 world title fights and went
3 wins 2 loses and a draw in World Title fights with 5 of those title fights in Italy.

Compared to Tszyu's
15 Wins 2 loses 1 NC with 5 of those World Title fights in Australia.
And with multiple Belts on the line Tszyu was 5-0.

So because Loi had beaten Ortiz and Perkins he is rated higher all because he beat 2 guys.

Because of accomplishments i feel Tszyu deserves to be rated higher and i feel he would ****ing own guys like

Loi
Cervantes
Locche