If Frazier had won in Manilla

I think he'd try to make easy defences for as long as he could. He did after FOTC, so he should do something similar when older and even more battleworn.

After Young had eliminated Foreman from contention I can see him taking on him as a mandatory and losing a split decision.

 

I think this would have happened had Ali been through one more tough fight or a couple more competitive ones going into Manilla. Joe was worn himself, but bitterly tenacious and determined, and in the Thrilla, Ali just had a bit too much for Joe. Had Ali had a bit less left in his tank, it is very conceivable Joe wills it out.

One of two things would happen. Joe tries to milk it for a few fights, taking on woeful opposition like he did for his first title reign until Foreman, then takes on Foreman again, or Young. Or, he takes on Foreman again. Either way, he loses his title by brutal knockout in the 5th or 6th or is outboxed. He would just have had nothing left for a top heavyweight.

 

Based on the title picture after Ali finished with Frazier, Foreman and Young are the likely candidates for Fraziers next top fight, unless he holds the belt hostage. He might for a year or two, but I can't see it being till the emergence of Holmes.

He loses to Foreman, Young, and if they were to fight, the Norton of the 3rd Ali fight. Thrilla finished Frazier more than it did Ali.

And yes, I believe that. If Joe had taken the same fights after Thrilla that Ali did, he'd probably be in pretty bad shape himself.

 

Defence mid-76 against Bob Stallings, Joe lumbers to a 10-round split decision and is booed out of the ring by Eddie Futch. He follows this with a stoppage of Kallie Knoetze in Sun City, much to the horror of anti-apartheid pop combo Hall and Oates (Joe also insists on singing both national anthems before the bout as a gesture of "good will", with his reformed band The Knockouts).

The Joe is forced, unlike Ali, to fight Foreman, he agrees. They tee off summer of 76 and Joe is mashed- again. His comeback vs that great big elephant ejaculation Jumbo Cummings never happens, instead his returns in 1984, weighing 270 pounds and is stopped in 1-minute by John L. Gardner in York Hall.

 

I think he would be a popular enough champion to be able to duck Foreman. At most he would have lost a belt, but would still be considered the champ. Hell, he went two years without having to face his mandatory the first time around.

 

Joe's pride would have been too much for him to turn it down, he'd have to try and settle those Foreman demons.

 

Frazier probably would've suffered more losses. imo The way those two fought in the third fight I consider them both winners.

 

Can't argue with that. :good

 

Yeah, I was just going to post something along those lines after having a little think about it. It would just be too shameful for Joe to duck someone who'd obliterated him earlier. Foreman wins it back in 1976 and loses it too Young in 1977 then.

Young, as undisputed champion, gets the benefit of a doubt in a close decision against Norton before losing the title to Holmes in 1978. Business as usual resumes.

 

What about a scrap with Norton?

 

Dunno if either man would have wanted to fight without Eddie in the corner, to be honest.. They seemed to agree to not fight, as there was a time or two where a match could have made sense.

Not saying either one ducked the other, mind you, but I think this would be a fight both would forego if they could.

 

Frazier's weight shot right up between Manila and Foreman II, despite his previous experience with George. I think there's a real chance Joe decides to call it quits if he somehow wins Manila, maybe choosing to retire as champion to afford good friend Norton an opportunity to succeed him to the vacated title. (According to Ali's ghostwritten 1976 autobiography, Joe strongly believed that top "dinosaurs" should not be friends, as Smoke and Ken actually were. Frazier needed some acrimony to be at his most effective, and the congenial Norton would not have provided it. This was at a time when Monzon retired gracefully, leaving an undisputed title behind for his successor. Joe may well have done likewise.)

However, with his hustle and body punching, the top contender he has the best chance of generating a successful defense over is Young. He can't stop Jimmy, but might be able to pull off a decision with his aggression, and work rate downstairs. Then, if he were to continue, he'd opt for the biggest payoff available. That wouldn't be Foreman II, but fight four with Ali.

After his scare with Young, Muhammad trimmed himself down to 220 for Dunn, and looked sharp, suggesting he still had something very substantial left in the tank. (Not only was Dunn his final stoppage, but he actually carried Richard to make the written prediction forecast by he and Dundee on the inside of his gloves stick.) At 225 for Manila, Ali was actually not in the best shape he could have gotten himself into. For a fourth showdown, he absolutely would have managed to achieve top condition one final time, and does become a three time undisputed champion by stopping Joe, who would no longer have the hunger or chip on his shoulder necessary to prevail. Both likely retire after this, with their series forever locked at two apiece.

The question now becomes who succeeds Ali, if Muhammad does retire after Frazier IV. Whoever it is gets dethroned by Holmes, but how does a tournament involving Young, Foreman, Norton and probably Shavers turn out? We know Ken could get a disputed verdict over Jimmy, but if he has to win more than one eliminator, he'll have to overcome a huge slugger, something he never proved he could do. The plot thickens from there. Does the controversy over South Africa's apartheid policies inevitably guarantee an earlier WBC-WBA split, or is the detente following Monzon's retirement observed? (That orderly transition was one of the incredible events in 1970s boxing.)

 

Well the best case scenario for both fighters is obviously the 15th not happening. That's the one positive thing about how it all did play out.

If the other corner had quit first, all would be right with the world.

They might be good friends today.

Frazier might not have reigned long thereafter, but it would be an epic win and put him up 2-1 on a near-consensus GOAT.