If Frazier had won in Manilla

Norton said in "Going The Distance" that although he & Joe were friends, one reason they never fought was that nobody ever put enough money on the table to make it viable, but if the money had been there they would have put their friendship aside momentarily.

Therefore if Joe had won in Manila I think it highly feasible (and justifiable) for him to defend against Ken. If that happened, I see a points win for Norton at that time. This potentially turns 70s heavyweight history on it's head. Ali's 70s reign is much shorter, for a start. Norton then likely defends against either Ali or Foreman, Ali has first dibs as he's beaten Foreman & would likely be Norton's first choice of the 2. As defending champion and with the confidence of a champion I would expect Norton to get the decision over Ali that he deserved in Yankee Stadium.

What next? Well, it could be exactly as things eventually turned out...Norton ko's Bobick...Young eliminates Foreman...eventually leading to Holmes defeating Norton June 9 '78. Unless Shavers fights Norton and does what he did to Ken in March '79 but 18 months earlier and with the title at stake. Mind you, I'm not quite so sure Shavers kayoes the pre Holmes Norton...

Stands back and awaits abuse for the last sentence

 

I think this is a great post, not necessarily the near consensus GOAT part, but the sentiments contained overall:good

 

Joe was asked about this in an unguarded and reflective moment shortly before Manila, not long after Ali projected that rocking chairs and porch reminiscing scenario, laughed, and honestly replied that he didn't think they could ever be friends. Neither do I. They had and have little in common aside from fisticuffs. I don't see how they could have ever been friends the way Joe became with Norton and Holmes, even if Ali had never returned from exile. Just two different characters, backgrounds and personalities.

 

Two great posts. :good

 

Maybe not best of friends, but probably about 95% of Joe's lingering bitterness likely stems from the unfairness (real or perceived, depending on which side of that fence you fall on) of how things went down in the end at Manila.

 

I think Ali's plce among the all time heavyweight greats was asured going into the fight. I think that had Frazier won Ali would drop from top 3 to top 5. Fraizer would have a 2-1 lead on Ali. He would go from top 10 to top 5.
The question would be what happens next.
Lets say either they go out for the 15th round and Frazier gets a stoppage. I don't think with the scores even if Frazier had won the 15th round he would have had enough points to win the dicision, or had Ali's cornr stoped the fight before Fraizer's did.
This is what I think would have happened.
1. Ali would have retired with a 49-2 record.
2. I think Fraizer would still have rematched Forman and lost still. I think Foreman had his number. Hewould have retired fought Cummings and drew.
Fraizer would have a record of 33-3-1.
The result would have changed boxing history. Boosted by his stoppage win over Ali giving him a 2-1 lead over him. Fraizer would have moved up in the heavyweight rankings past Ali.

 

wow, i have thoroughly enjoyed the hell out of this thread. 70s heavyweight boxing is one of my true loves of this game and this is a brilliant thread about it

 

I agree that it is one of the best threads I have seen for a while; a great "what if" review of the HW division in the 70's... you guys keep your arguments in great shape

 

Then, Joe and his pride would have been badly battered :!:

 

There would have been an Ali-Frazier 4. Ali's pride would n't have enabled him to retire otherwise. Frazier would have accepted,and Ali would have won.

 

He's not beating Foreman.

 

Well that goes without saying.

 

I'm not sold on that. Joe always had the advantage of youth. We have the first hand testimony of both Patterson and Chuvalo that Ali was never again the same athlete after the 1960s, and they rematched an arguably better version of Muhammad in 1972 than the one who prematurely rushed into the FOTC ahead of an anticipated adverse SCOTUS decision. (This is especially true for Floyd, who experienced Ali the second time between Blue Lewis and Bob Foster in late 1972.)

Frazier was at his best for the FOTC, while Ali peaked nearly four years earlier. A debate would still rage about whether or not Joe could have dethroned Muhammad in 1969 if Ali had never gone into exile, regardless of a Frazier win at Manila. Also, their respective showings against Foreman would weigh heavily in Ali's favor for many. Joe's lack of a big win over a top shelf slugger would continue to hinder his status in the eyes of many. He needed to beat a Lyle, Shavers, Foreman or Mac Foster to round out his resume as Ali's was rounded out against a greater variety of foes.