Classic Posters(concerning Pac vs Margo)

Nor me, I was just throwing it out there as a "for instance". Pac would probably do his usual thing with someone like Martinez, in my opinion. A different style of opponent for him, but the class isn't quite there.

 

:rofl:rofl

This is as Pachilles as a Pachilles comment can possibly get.

 

Thought it was pretty embarrassing for a top 15 fighter all time to cop 200 punches from a bumbling fool like Margo.

Pac is a great fighter overall but he has his weaknesses.

A good counterpuncher or defensive whiz with a mid to high workrate in particular would make him look bad. They need a chin too cos Pac will hit them.

Just concentrating on the last 50 or so years, I think the following guys beat him:

Featherweight
Salvador Sanchez
Azumah Nelson
Ernesto Marcel
Vicente Saldivar
Alexis Arguello

Lightweight
Roberto Duran
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez
Carlos Ortiz
Alexis Arguello
Oscar De la Hoya
Shane Mosley
Floyd Mayweather

Lightwelter
Jose Napoles
Julio Cesar Chavez
Wilfred Benitez
Oscar de la Hoya
Pernell Whitaker
Carlos Ortiz

Welter
Too many to name


As an aside, HBO's commentary was hilariously bad last night, true to recent form.

 

nobody can beat pac at 140 including sweet pea and chavez

 

I agree with the list. I'd maybe add Pedroza. I am sure Wilfredo Gomez would dismantle him at 122. Pac will outrank many of these fighters all time because of his great accomplishments, but I don't see him as a head to head monster historically (as your list points out).

 

I did not watch the whole fight. I caught 4 rounds dispersed fairly evenly through the fight. But it seemed like Pac's footwork was a little plodding (compared to recent efforts). Was that your perception? I think Pac has hit his ceiling for weight while remaining highly effective.

 

I thought this when watching him train for the fight. It reminded me of Hopkins "Arms don't slow down, legs do." Pac's legs were looking heavy. He looked good in the fight but not his most fluid like against Oscar.

 

I thought his feet looked fine, actually. He did exactly what I expected him to do, which was use his in and out movement to befuddle the plodding Margarito. He looked uncomfortable at times against the ropes early on, though, in the face of little outside of size. Just goes to further my views on Pacquiao's inability to fight well off the backfoot. Also, regardless of what seems to be the growing perception, Pacquiao is and always will susceptible defensively. Despite everything, I stick by my prediction should a Pac/Floyd fight ever come off. Floyd by UD.

 

I think we could be over-analyzing or looking too much within the footwork. But I noticed when watching his training that seemed to have slowed down the most, if it all.

Don't you agree to some extent that in order to beat Pac you not only have to be a solid technician that can counter-punch, but someone that will "Fight" Pac. That's my main concern with Floyd against Pac (Not that I'm neccessarily rooting for him). As you say, you think Pac struggles going backwards. I just don't see Pac backing him up (Not that this is needed to beat him, I'm just saying).

I don't think I share your belief that Pac is that bad off the back foot. Depends how you define it I guess. Most fighters aren't great on the back foot but Manny has great lateral movement and handles pressure well. He seemed fine backing up against Hatton (Yes, another punching bag I know).

 

I know little of his training. I'm going by what I saw in the fight.

I think Pac would do better against the mid-ring types than against the better pure boxers or pressure fighters throughout history. Alas, there's noone around today to fill in the latter category, and only Floyd among the pure boxers to expose this in Pac. That Pac has done so well against the primarily pressuring stylists he's faced is more down to a lack of quality on their part than anything, in my opinion. He's shown the same flaws in many of those fights, regardless.

Pacquiao's in and out movement is excellent, but when forced to back up or forced to the ropes his game loses that edge of explosiveness, causing him to play primarily on the defensive until he's managed to get himself out of there. Against the right kind of educated pressure fighter (i.e. Chavez) I don't think he'd find it nearly as easy to escape those situations.

As for the pure boxers (i.e. Floyd), he still takes too many punches for me to see him faring nearly as well against the high level defensively sound/counter-punching types.

 

Most of those guys you listed Scientist are vastly superior to Pacquiao in boxing ability, so I do agree that most all of them would beat Pacquiao, some even in embarrasing fashion.......

DLH however never beats Manny Pacquiao even if they fought at 154 lbs against today's version of Pacquiao.

DLH is too reliant on that jab, left hook combination that Roach has trained Pacquiao very well to difuse.

Pacquiao destroyed MAB at 126 lbs for that very reason and DLH though p4p a bit faster than MAB, they fight in a similar style.

Pacquiao beats DLH everytime and at any weight imo.
Just a matter of Pacquiao having the perfect southpaw style to difuse such left hook happy fighters like DLH and MAB.

 

For me Pacquiao is the greatest offensive machine since Leonard, Hearns or Hagler.

And I think we are very lucky to be witnessing such a future (possibly top 15-10) ATG fighter at his peak.

I'm just glad he's fighting to be honest.

 

Top30 for sure. His weight jumping is really amazing and he is kind of a throwback in that he fought his best opponents multiple times - MAB, EM, JMM - and that he fought everyone but Floyd who avoids him. What holds him back is the lack of depth in this era though. Great guy too it seems. Still pick Floyd to beat him though.

 

Good post, I agree overall but the Jones bit. Jones jumped two weightclasses and then made a one fight jump of another two weightclasses. What Pac did is much more impressive IMO.

I think Pac can beat Williams but not Martinez. So, if Floyd doesn´t fight him and Williams wins it, he fights him and wins the mw championship. That would be huge because it is the actual championship, Williams is a good fighter and the weightjump would have never been made (fly to mw). He would be around Top15 for sure. If Martinez wins he probably fights one of the very good young 140 pounders. Bradley, Alexander. Or he fights Sturm or Sylvester to grab a belt at mw.

Anyway we should be grateful to see such a great fighter around.

 

That´s something I don´t agree with. A win doesn´t get better over time just because the fighter you beat improves later on. That´s why I don´t think Jones win over Hopkins is something special. Hopkins was a good contender level fighter when Jones beat him and that´s what this win is.