The Great Trainers & Fighters on Jack Dempsey

wills was over the top by the time dempsey got the title, drawing with bill tate etc.. thats not to say wills wasnt a good contender who deserved a poke at willard or even dempsey, my hunch is it would have been like ali v foley, a contender geting a crack in the wrong era.

Im sure greb would have been a handful for dempsey but I read a long time ago that greb himself hinted that he would be lucky to beat dempsey for real.

 

Maybe wills should have got his shot ahead of carpentier and co but I have never read of any respected boxing person of the day who felt wills could have won. So why should not fighting wills make Dempsey any less of a fighter? Sometimes fights just don’t happen. tunney never fought sharkey. Marciano did not fight valdes, foreman did not fight quarry, Bowe did not fight lewis and so on.

If I was Dempsey’s manager I would still have took the wills fight. On paper it was more risk for less money than the fights dempsey took but still no real danger.
I honestly think there would have been a lot more fuss if Dempsey did not fight firpo. The Argentinean looks like a hype job now but he was the biggest draw in boxing after Dempsey.

The truth is (fair or unfair)there were a lot of active fighters matched hard in 1919 and 1920 and wills did not overshadow them as a serious threat to the title.

Harry greb, the one eyed middle weight was a legendary figure but he did not beat any of Dempsey’s opponents more convincingly than jack did. Grebb would fight anyone, I am sure he chased Dempsey for a fight, I also wish they had of fought. I cant prove Dempsey would have won but there is fair amount of proof the vast majority would have seen it as a mismatch. If it had of excited the fans it would have happened.


With no ratings champions were only looking for mega fights. Wills and grebb were certainly worthy but just not mega fights because they did not represent bigger paydays than the fights Dempsey took. Why? Because whilst they were busy solid fighters they did not represent sufficient the risk to the paying fans.

 

But grebb did not knock any of them out where as Dempsey knocked out Brennan another common opponent. At this time of ND's the KO was the key.
Dempsey claimed he was asked not to knock out Meehan who was a plucky, spoiling performer who was never genuinely knocked out in his first 123 fights. Neither Wills nor greb knocked out Meehan either, though greb fought him over 6 rounds, a distance Meehan always said Dempsey would have knocked him out at. The man who did finally knock out Meehan was Gibbons who did get a shot at Dempsey.
Tunney and gibbons were not even heavyweights at the time grebb beat them, I realise that did not stop carpentier getting a crack at the title but he knocked out European heavyweights adding international flavour to stoke a mega fight.
I get the impresion fans were less excited about contenders with News paper decision wins than knockouts at that time.

Yes there was enough hype certainly after the firpo fight to create most title fights into a big fight. Before this I don’t think wills and grebb would have drew anymore than the miske, Brennan and gibbons fights. rickard built firpo into a 85,000 gate performer on his knockout streak. After beating that “firpo monster” they were all going to be huge title fights but by then even you admit wills and grebb were already out of the equation as world beaters.

 

I read it in a thread on here so it must be true!

There is no doubt grebb was at least as entitled to a shot as gibbons, i just think the novalty of being the guy who knocked out dempseys bogey man was a beter selling point to the general sports fan than anything grebb did as a heavyweight.

only with hindsight. carpentier was on a KO streak since returning a hero of the great war. The frenchman was the first man since dempsey to knock out battling levinsky in the 59 fights the then lightheavyweight champion had until then.

 

perhaps but grebb wasnt knocking anyone out.

in 1920-21 wills knocked out 2 fighters dempsey had already knocked out, Fulton and gunboat smith. Fulton lasted 3 times longer against wills and smith was on a knockout losing streak. dempsey fought miske around this time then wills's form nosedived with a draw to bill tate, dempseys sparring partner..

In 1921 greb had 3 draws to middleweights jeff smith and chuck wiggins..and he had scored only 2 KO wins in his last 20 fights.

so yes in 1921 the carpenteir fight made more sence, here was an international star who had knocked out the lightheavyweight champion as well as the top heavyweights of europe. was he more dangerous? I think in 1921 the public bought it. the war hero v slacker angle sold it.

 

C, I am afraid you are tilting with windmills..there are good chaps here,that despite their denials hold Jack Dempsey in contempt.. They
repeatedly spout that Dempsey avoided Harry Wills, when evidence
showing Dempsey and Harry Wills, being PHOTOGRAPHED signing for a fight,which was canceled because the New Jersey promoter, Floyd
Fitzimmons, couldn't come up with the money..Harry Wills pocketed the deposit money.Dempsey signed for that fight, and to deny this FACT
shown in photographs,a short while ago on ESB, leads me to believe
that political correctness has run amuck on some posters here.
You can have opinions on who would have won that bout , but not to
deny the signing shown on ESb.Tex Rickard refused to match them for
fear of race riots that unfortuanetly occured after the Johnson-Jeffries fight in 1910...Jack Dempsey was a tough as any fighter that ever lived
and feared no one in a Ring, whgen he was in his prime..NO ONE...
Sam Langford was asked who would win that fight between Dempsey and Wills before the cancellation, said "my money will be on Jack, for he is
the greatest heavyweight I have ever seen ". That was the high praise
Langford had for the prime Jack Dempsey.
The same posters who demean Dempsey for "avoiding" Wills, are mum when Ray Robinson,NEVER tackled Charley Burley, Holman Williams,Eddie
Booker,during his [and my] era. Why ? They never criticize the great
Joe Louis when he didn't tackle Lee Q Murray, Harry Bobo, Lem Franklin,
Jimmy Bivins, black heavytweightrs of his time who were more worthy of a shot than many of Louis's opponents. Why is not Louis not labeled as
"avoiding these fighters ? Why is only Jack Dempsey picked on so many years after his death ??? Dempsey, Robinson, and Joe Louis were immortals,and followed the advice of their advisers and promoters doing
what was best for their careers. And no one should only be singled out
as Jack Dempsey is NOW, 90 years after his prime. Tain't fair I say...

and

 

I think you're dead on the money, burt.

 

Ko merchants who sell seats and beat common opponents beter than the champion should get a shot first. As well as this there will always be less deserving chalengers who make finantial sence.

there was a short window of oppertunity where wills would have been a competative fight for dempsey during his title years and it was about 1920. It did not hapen but its just one year! wills faded fast after that point, his wins did not force the kind of firpo like showdown the fans craved. even so during the tail end of wills's form the wins over fulton and smith did not surpass what dempsey had done to those guys anyway.

Not during the dempsey era. fulton and smith? bill tate? faded guys like the already blind langford and old man mcvey? Its like berbick beating ali or danny wiliams beating tyson.

wills should have got a shot at the title but he in no way overshadows dempseys legend or detracts from it anymore than a long line of other great fighters who never met their unfashionable contenders. there was just one year wills could (or should) have fought for the title, it didnt come off. so what?

"Outside of jack Dempsey" who also beat Brennan on points before he was champion. Unlike the great greb, Dempsey also knocked out heavyweight contenders on his way to the title. firpo knocked out brennan (quicker than Dempsey) proving knocking out a victim makes a bigger splash when under consideration for a title chance. I can’t help thinking middleweight grebs Ko ratio did not excite the fans at that time. If greb beat each of the contenders dempsey did in the same style dempsey did he would have got his chance.

and each of them were beaten beter by dempsey.

 

who in the world actually believes that Greb seriously wanted to fight dempsey in a real fight? i mean Greb never met a puncher anywhere near the level of dempsey.