Pernell Whitaker v Manny Pacquaio

That's your opinion. I happen to think the matchup favors Whitaker widely.

 

Whitaker at both weights, and it wouldn't be close.

 

i think that's selling manny well short. no top 20-30 fighter could really be considered an easy fight for damn near anyone. i don't think manny is at THAT much of a stylistic advantage here. i'm sorry for being blasphemous but manny is not a severly limited ramirez (much like margarito), a much smaller azumah nelson or buddy mcgirt (who whitaker had quite a bit of trouble with in the first fight).

 

Have you seen that fight? Post clips depicting Nelson as being the smaller man by any significant margin.

True. McGirt was also much better in my estimation than any of Pacquiao's higher weight conquests.

 

For nelson, i guess it's a difference of opinion. nelson was moving up and weight and to me, had a much smaller frame than whitaker who could move up to 154 (a very small 154 mind you)

McGirt is better than most of pac's post morales competition (a bit above cotto but not by much) but the question is: Is McGirt better than pac though? Whitaker had an easy time with ramirez but not mcgirt. Mcgirt gave him quite a bit of trouble and he's nowhere near pac's level. I'm saying if sweet pea didn't have an easy time with buddy, why would he have an easy time with pac?

I have, and likely always will, favour whitaker in this one but to discount pac is foolish. it would be the toughest fight of pea's career in my opinion and a signifcantly bigger challenge than a well worn chavez, closer to a prime oscar (though pea himself was way past it at that point)

 

Whitaker was able to move up because he was that good, not because he had nearly the right frame for 154. He looked quite pudgy around the middle against Vasquez. Hell, he was always a small Welterweight. Just watch the McGirt fight and compare, although Buddy's massive melon could also be playing tricks on me. Still, a bigger disparity there than between Whitaker and Nelson, clearly.

Styles make matchups. McGirt had the right hand foil to the southpaw style, and was a very slick, skilled technician himself. I seriously doubt Manny puts the paint-job on Simon Brown the way McGirt did, for instance. I'm not sold on McGirt being "nowhere near Pac's level" as a Welterweight. In the grand scheme of things, surely Pac is the greater fighter, but as a Welterweight?

I don't think Chavez was "well worn" by that stage. Past his peak? Sure. Still an A-level fighter? Definitely. Noone at the time seemed to view Chavez as on any kind of decline, especially given his recent performances against Haugen, Camacho and the like. Still, hindsight is 20/20 and I agree with you that Chavez was not at his best. But then, Whitaker was never quite the Welterweight he was as a Lightweight, either.

 

Probably Pac, to be honest. Still, I do think McGirt matches up better with Whitaker purely from a styles point of view.

Question to Jorodz: You said you see Pac beating more "great Welters" than McGirt. What great Welters do you see either of them beating? Think about it beforehand. Is Pacquiao really proven enough to start favoring him over the greats at this weight? Sure, he's had a few fights there, but compare the opposition before you go overboard.

These are the kinds of things that will always make Pacquiao overrated by the majority in my eyes, despite the fact that he's unquestionably a great fighter.

 

But then I also think that was around the time he started declining noticeably. He looked to me more like he was simply starting to fall out of the shape he used to be rather than having grown into the weight.

I hear your point, but I'm not sure it's entirely relevant when looking at their matchup. Pete had the experience against larger men, Oscar didn't. However, he wasn't facing a larger man in Whitaker. Oscar was a huge 135-140 pounder, and the bigger, fresher fighter than Whitaker when it all came down to it, regardless of whether or not that was his first fight at the weight. Had Whitaker an especially physical/aggressive style that made the supposed weight advantage useful than I might agree with you, but he didn't. Least of all in that fight.

 

it's a fair question but i'm putting manny in the ATG class and give him the same courtesy as I would any other all time great and assume a degree of brilliance carries over weight classes.

when you put it that way, it's hard to pick out many great welters he'd beat but i can pick out a number he'd be competitive with.

I'd say he could do respectably against napoles (small for the weight), basilio, griffith and benitez. i really can't say i'd favour him against too many but much like ricardo lopez or pryor, i'll make a bit of a guess between dominant performances against lesser fighters and how he'd do against significantly better ones

good question and nice discussion:good