Was Liston-Clay a fix? I don't think so

Yeah, this does cast a bit of suspicion. That it does. It's not evidence, though.

 

Not like me to miss something like that.

You were talking about the first fight?

That the odds against Clay in that fight were huge is hardly suprising, though.

 

Sure. But Janitor mentioned "compelling evidence", and such I haven't heard of. I think he meant the rematch, but the same goes there (even if it's certainly more suspect).

 

it was no fix,imo. Liston quit in the first fight,and was totally demoralised before the second one even began.

 

the first fight was on the level but the second is a big NO it wasn't

 

Re: The first fight

There is no doubt that Clay was blinded by something. The only question is whether or not it was deliberate.

Can't be definitive there.


There is no direct evidence that that fight was thrown.

The most compelling evidence for me was the fight itself. Liston was clearly trying to hurt Clay. He appears to have completely underestimated Clay and not taken him for a serious threat. He was not regarded as much of a threat by serious boxing insiders.

I believe Liston got discouraged by Clay's elusiveness and speed and decided to 'bow out.'

In most regards, while I feel the fight was on the level, I think the point is somewhat moot. When a fighter throws a fight, there is the suggestion that, had he not thrown it, he could have won it.

in this instance, I don't think that is the case.

If I was fighting Tyson and was paid to take a dive, I very well might.

But even if I changed my mind on the way to the ring, I don't think that would change things much.


The second fight is more of a question mark. A complete dog's breakfast of confusion with the ref taking instructions from outside of the ring and the fight being restarted , only to be declared over.


Again, while it didn't look like much, Ali caught Liston on the temple with a sharp 'pull counter' while Liston was fully extended forward and somewhat off-ballance. Enough to get the knockdown, but scarcely enough to end things, one might think.

I believe that Liston once again felt that he was in for another humiliating night and stayed down long enough to end the bout.

When told to continue, he seemed ready, but didn't get too excited when told it was over.

I believe neither one was thrown in the sense we normally use the word.

But we can't know for sure.

 

If you look at the first fight, Sonny was going after Clay like a terror.
But, he ran out of gas in the middle of the 5th round.

Things to look at, Sonny had fought only 4 minutes in the ring in the previous 2 years (Total amount of time in the ring with both Patterson fights).
His timing was way off, and his footwork was absolutely pathetic.

Boxers in the know, were convinced Liston just gave up.
There was no other explanation.
Unfortunately, many people can't except that.

 

The second fight was a fix. Watch as Liston thinks about getting up, and then decides to forget about it and roll over. There's no denying the mob influence on his career. Bad thing is George Chuvalo was in line for a title shot earlier if Liston had won.

 

I dont believe either were fixes, actually, and the tape of what goes down is all I need to show me this.

 

MagnaNasakki,
Do you really think the 'second fight' was on the 'up-n-up' ?
Even if it was a 'legitimate' knockdown, there is no way in hell that Sonny couldn't have gotten up, or least to one knee, within a minute.
I believe Sonny just didn't want to go through the Bull**** anymore.
He really hated the boxing 'business'.

 

I can give you 10 knockouts off the top of my head where the guy down could get up but doesn't.

Thats called accepting the count. Its still legitimate loss by knockout.

Also, he got up, and went back to fighting before Walcott decided to call it a knockout. Could he have got up sooner? Sure, probably. But he didn't. And he still got up in the first place, and had thrown a punch when the fight was waved off.

Thats not a fix.

 

In Remnicks book, he also says that a lot of people in the ring could see that Liston was visibly dazed. They said when looking into his eyes they knew he was out of it.