Was Liston-Clay a fix? I don't think so

This is true. I even read up on Listons daily training program, and it was INTENSE. He got in tip top shape for the fight, and when Ali got the hernia, Liston was heard in his bed that night saying "That damn fool....that damn fool"

 

Liston quit. I don't think anyone would argue he made a real championship effort. I cannot think of any heavyweight champion who surrendered the title so easily. No other champ quit like that.

Boxing in America was being run by the mob quite blatantly and openly, Every fighter, or their manager or promoter, was under the influence. The mob also ran the entire sports gambling industry in America.

Liston was definitely under the interests of mobsters. So, they either wanted him to win (bet on him to win) or they didn't want him to win (bet against him).
Why would Liston give up fighting so easily if the mobsters wanted him to win ?

This is what I don't get. People say, "No, the championship was worth too much to the mob for them to throw it away", but Liston DID appear to throw it away, or at least made only a half-hearted effort to keep it. And how was that in his interests, if he was being relied upon and watched closely by mob associates and the shadowy figures who influence boxing ?
If the mob were so weak that you could quit a heavyweight title AGAINST their wishes, and against their business interests, then how did they ever influence any match ever ?
Liston wasn't an idiot or a young fool who would make a rash decision like that. I don't think he would just quit on his backers like that, let down the gangsters who ran boxing, the men who had their money on him.

 

i would suggest Douglas capitulation to holyfield was a worse case of giving up than Listons

 

Liston could have made alot more $$$ fighting Brain London, Henry Cooper and
Dick Richardson in England in 1964.
There was no 'rush' to fight a Young Clay in 1964.

Question,,,,,,Why would Clay's management rush into a fight with Liston???
It wasn't like Clay was SOOOOO Impressive over Doug Jones and Henry Cooper,
in 1963. Damn near lost both fights.

 

I don't think so, Douglas was floored heavy by a vicious punch. He could have got up, sure, but he was outclassed all the way and decked really heavy. He had less than 10 seconds to consider his options and was actually hurt and on the canvas, so I don't think that's worse than what Liston did.

Either way, we know Douglas was somewhat physically and mentally ruined by a $23 million purse and coming in 15 pounds heavy.
His performance and conditioning was very poor, and certainly not a championship effort.
I think Liston's capitulation tops it as a pure quit job though.

 

One can only think,
How Boxing would have been different if;
Liston took a fight with Ingemar Johannsen in Sweden, and then a fight with
Ol' Enry Cooper in England in 1964.
No one would have questioned those fights.
And Liston, would have made Tons of $$$.

 

He gave up, that is indisputable.
He didn't exactly fight to the last drop or close to it. In fact, he stopped way short of a all-out effort.

People say Liston was owned by the mob, I don't know. I do believe the mob still ran or influenced championship boxing then (and perhaps now), and I do believe Liston was under the mob's influence as much as any champion at that time. Clay's promoters in Miami weren't exactly squeaky clean either, and the black muslim crowd played by their own rules too.

Realistically I don't think Liston would "just give up" like that in a fight that the mob wanted him to win, unless of course he'd be sure to benefit personally somehow. He'd at least go out with more of a fight.

 

Nobody will ever know 100% but I very much doubt that the mob had anything to do with the Ali fights. Just like 9/10 years later with George Foreman,Sonny just could n't solve the riddle known as Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali. As I'm always saying,a fellow hefty puncher such as Cleveland Williams was a cut and dried task for Sonny. Ali was more of an enigma for him.

 

Before the 1st fight,,,,, Listons sparring partners were giving him fits.
Especially Leotis Martin, who at that time was a quick-fisted 175 lb. boxer.

 

I politely disagree mate. Douglas, to me, didnt seem really hurt. Ok he got tagged a good counter right but after seeing him raise his glove to his face (im assuming to check for bleeding although i may be wrong) im convinced he could have and should have gotten up,which,to me, is worse than what Liston is accused of doing. At least with Listons case several docters claim he DID have a shoulder injury (although i have no proof of this and have to take the word of many articles ive read over the years)

 

While the full story will always be clouded by mystery, I think you made a good effort to show it was fixed & you won't find me arguing with it. :good

Liston only seemed to show some degree of proper aggression in round 5 & even then his effort was uninspired.

 

Douglas could have got up, I agree. But I think being tagged by that right hand must have hurt, and like I said, he had less than 10 seconds to consider his options. He quit.
Liston more or less stopped fighting through the 6th round, and then had 60 seconds to regroup, but quit. Maybe he had sustained some damage, but he hadn't really taken many hard blows, and he hadn't been decked, and he had all that time to consider and he made an outright decision to quit. He certainly hadn't taken a really bad beating.

Yes, we have to agree to disagree. But it's not a particularly important point. Douglas went out like a bum, so did Liston.

 

You can watch that first fight over and over, and still pick up 'snippets'
of questionable moves.
Take a look at Listons corner during the fight.
His cornerman were 'clueless'.
They had no plan and no voice of encouragement to Sonny, before each round.
It was like, they were expecting the outcome.

 

to refresh some memories -liston comes back strong in 2nd half of round 3 after he took quite a beating

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The 2nd fight im afraid to say was fixed as ****