The Great Trainers & Fighters on Jack Dempsey

Ali's record is stupendously superior to Dempsey's in every part. So that means? Yes, Ali is PROVEN. Dempsey is not, and use hearsay and nostalgia all you wish, but there is no justification for placing Jack at the top of the heavyweight tree. Rose tinted nostalgia-specs are NOT evidence. He may well have been as breathtaking as is said, but it was never tested nor proven in the ring.

 

stupendously superior??? In every part???


first and only real tough fight prior to getting a title shot - struggled with 5'8" light heavy Doug Jones
Almost KO'd by Henry Cooper!!
2 fake fights vs Liston?
defended against slipped disc floyd (took 12 rounds to stop him)
defended against Henry Cooper & Brian London (!!!!!!!!!!???? joke)
was given a seriously tough time by George Chuvalo (who aside from his iron chin was pretty much a trialhorse in world title terms
defended against Cleve Williams with half his insides blown out
defended against shopworn Folley (wow)
Lost vs Frazier
Lost (IMO twice) vs Kenny Norton (Ali admitted he'd never even heard of Norton before the first fight - nobody had - he was an absolute nobody - the 70's were the glory days right??!!)
embarrassed title vs CHuck Wepner (!!!???) Jean Pierre Coopman (!!!??????) Richard Dunn (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????) Alfredo Evangelista (!!!!???)
IMO lost vs Jimmy Young
IMO lost vs Earnie Shavers
Lost vs Leon Spinks (!!!!)

Fair enough the losses to Holmes and Berbick are just completely ridiculous - should never have been in the ring

But I think you either just don't really know much about Ali's era - or you have just been fed the usual diatribe that the 70's rose tinted glasses crowd are brainwashed by

 

And even based on that he is still one of the two greatest heavyweight of all time!

There comes a point where volume and activity drown the opposition. Ali beat 30+ fighters who were curently ranked in the top 10, and he absolutely deserves the acolade of being one of the top two heavyweights allong with Louis.

Not wishing to give suport to Jack Dempseys least inteligent critics!

 

Lord, Rocky, You nailed it. Ali,who I first saw winning a close dec from Tony Madigan in the 1960 Olympics,was
the political darling of the American left,rebeling [wrongly I believe],
against their country. Whatever he did in the Ring ,eking out close decisions, taunting his opponents,refusing to serve his country, while some other poor schnook had to take his PLACE, insulting one of my very favorites Joe Frazier's looks and calling Joe an Uncle Tom, etc, was overlooked by so many of his admirers...I am still puzzled at his adherents
of those days and now, that give him godlike properties in trhe Ring and
out of it, that he did not deserve...I was never impressed by his razzle dazzle foot movements that would have the crowd roaring, without
throwing a punch.Never impressed with his taunting his hapless opponents
as if they were a bull and he was the bullfighter..
I believe a decent heavyweight,Ken Norton had the better of him overall in their bouts. In short Ali was a product of his times..And as you Rocky so
truly state above,was no Joe Louis or God help us , no Ray Robinson,
between the squared circle...Thanks for saying what had to be said, in my
opinion...:good

 

Why do it then??:roll: Anybody with half a brain knows I wasn't actually hating on Ali - I love Ali :happy - I was simply stating how ridiculous it is to say Ali's record was stupendously superior to Dempsey's - it clearly wasn't stupendously superior - sure Ali had good wins - performances he put in against Foreman (one of the best ever) and Norton II were just amazing - that wasn't the point but at the end of the day people get swallowed up in the whole Ali thing - you even say yourself "there comes a point where volume and activity drown the opposition" and something about 30plus top 10 ranked fighters he fought - Klitschko fought someone not too long ago called ??Kevin Johnson?? (I think??) who was ranked in the top 10 - he was absolutely shamefully godawful - so top 10 rankings per sa mean jack $h1t unfortunately - but yeah know what you're saying Ali was totally amazing and everything I mean I have him as 4th all time which is pretty legendary in anyones book but just readdressing the balance - Ali's record was clearly not stupendously superior in every way - it had it's great great moments sure, as did Dempsey's (for instance did Ali score 25 first round KO's?) but it was definately not stupendously superior - this is where the problems are happening with respect to people starting to get dumbed down about the 70's being the best years in boxing - Ali being the only great fighter from the past that anyone pays any attention to (or even knows as far as the general public is concerned) - I think the general public must just think the other 10 decades of heavyweight history were just full of nonentities who are just not really worth talking about next to Ali :roll:

 

cheers Burt - does genuinely make me a little angry though - we have such an incredibly rich history with boxing but the general public (certainly in the UK at least) just doesn't have any clue about it - all they know is Ali - and NOTHING else - they don't even know about Joe Louis (which is a crying shame) - every boxing book over here has Ali on the cover - every boxing DVD or box set has Ali on the cover - it's the same reason that a couple of amazing books released not too long ago about Sam Langford and Harry Greb - have probably made the writers zero profit and are pretty much viewed as underground documents - it really bugs me - sure Ali was great but people talk as though it's just ridiculous to even suggest that anyone (certainly before him god forbid) could possibly be anywhere near as good as him - somebody actually used the argument about with me once about him being the first one you could genuienly term as a greatfighter on the basis of his fights being the first ones in colour!!!??? It's a joke :roll:

 

Another example of what I've said before

erm hello?? FRAZIER BEAT ALI!!??
and again please don't use the two fights with Liston as arguments about Ali's greatness - both those fights were bogus - a joke - they prove (an mean) absolutely nothing - if anything they are to be used to prove the exact opposite of the point you're failing to make

Foreman? Fair enough and - just because Ali beat Foreman - then no one else could even be intelligently compared with Ali???

You then says "ATG fighters that Ali failed to meet" 0

well once again Liston we can put to one side because those fights were dodgy anyway.......and Frazier beat Ali anyway .....(not to mention had to put up with some dodgy shenanigans in Frazier II what with all the occassions of the ref calling the end of the round early by mistake again and again??? What was all that about??).........Foreman yeah that was an awesome win - amazing......where are all the other ATG's again??? am i missing something?? and don't say Patterson (see the above) and don't say Archie Moore (50), and don't say Larry Holmes (lost and see the above anyway), Neon Leon?? Sorry mate but the likes of Henry Cooper (even tho he's become a national hero now) and Brian London were considered pretty much jokes in this country in their day (and I'm not exaggerating - Ron Lyle pushed Ali to the wire aswell (and he was NOT an all time great BTW - again where are all these all time greats you speak of??

 

trust me I'm British - and they're not I promise you - probably part of the reason why the sport is slowly dying over here - PS there might be books about Louis, Sullivan (!!!????Nobody knows about that unless you're a boxing obsessive like us!!), Burley (!!!!???Ditto Sullivan times 10) and a few others - but they aren't bought in large amounts because nobody even knows who they are because they haven't been force fed them like they have Ali - thats my point. There was a Klitschko fight recently where there was this clever video that was played during his entrance to the arena which morphed Klit into loads of bits of the same footage as Ali - which looked brilliant and was really cool and everything - but again why couldn't it have involved Joe Louis instead of Ali or Rocky Marciano - or JACK DEMPSEY - again it's just another case of the only heavyweight from history which is spoon fed to the general public is MUhammad Ali - the only great heavyweight that anyone can be compared to is ALI ALI ALI ALI ALI ALI

 

:dead

 

Yes