Does anyone here think that Larry Holmes is sometimes underappreciated?

Kinda of shock to see Frazier as number 1 for 3 years in a row.

 

Had Ali been ban forever, and not had these great fights with Frazier, Foreman, Norton, and others, I think his ranking in the top 2 would drop a bit. Yeah still top 5. But he would be around Marciano's level imo.

 

What do you mean?

He was number one when Ali was banned.

 

67, 68, and 69.

 

I don't think anyone on Ali's 'first 8 defenses list' would have been any trouble for
Larry Holmes.

That list was a walk in the park for any 'talented' fighter.
Thad Spencer, Eddie Machen, Doug Jones, Amos Lincoln or Leotis Martin were as
good as anybody on that list.

In 1966, Amos 'Big Train' Lincoln was rated as high as #2.
He was, at the time 41-5-1 (23 KO's).
At 30 years-old , 6' 2" 205 lbs.
A former Sonny Liston sparring partner.

In late 1966, Ali did not want to go to Portland, Oregon to fight him, because of the
cold weather (that was his excuse).
Ali took the fight with Cleveland Williams in the Houston Astrodome (11/66) instead.
How good was the 'gun shot riddled' Williams at that time. Ring Magazine didn't even rate him in the Top 15.

 

I don't think that anybody is denying that this was a weak era.

Even a weak era is rarely a walk in the park for a great fighter.

What is clear is that Ali was fighting the best available and virtualy cleaning out the rankings.

 

What Janitor said, really. And a diminished Ali came back and cleaned out a stronger era. What more can one ask for?

It's like Tyson, without the loss to Douglas, coming back and cleaning out the 90's. Winning a series with Holy and KO'ing Bowe.

 

Agree.

 

janitor,

Maybe it was, as you said, Ali was fighting the best available fighters.
But, he did not want Amos Lincoln in Portland, Oregon.

He still never gave a deserving Eddie Machen a shot, or a re-match with
Doug Jones. Even though both figheters were past their prime.

But of course, Ali fought one deserving 'japanese wrestler'.

 

To be fair though, you can always find fighter A that a champion should theoreticaly have fought instead of fighter B.

If the worst that you have against Ali, is a possible Machen fight, or a Doug Jones rematch, then that is as good as it gets.

 

No doubt Ali would have beaten both Eddie Machen and Doug Jones, by probably in boring dull 15-round decision fights.

No entertainment value. Much like when Holmes was more-or-less forced to fight
Ossie Ocassio (by virtue of his (2) decision wins over #3 Jimmy Young).

Needless to say, I guess I was 'nit-picking' on Ali, because he picked opponents to fight back then, and was permitted to get away with it, because of the entertainment $$$.

 

Didn't Ali already beat Doug Jones? Early in the 60s?

As far as I'm concerned he already beat Chuvalo and Liston twice ( liston being a great win, better then any of holmes' wins)

 

Ali owned Jones in an exhibition in 1966. Machen had already been beaten by Patterson, whom Ali dominated. In 1966 he was KO'd by Frazier as well. He was no threat to Ali.

Ali's first reign goes like this: He starts with the mandatory rematch against Liston. Then he beats the nr. 1 contender, Patterson. Terrell, the new nr. 1, is next in line but due to the whole "got no quarell with the Viet Cong"-thing Terrell pulls out and is replaced in the last minute by Chuvalo. By this time Ali is persona non-grata in USA so he tours Europe and beats the best there. Then, when things have calmed down a bit, he returns and makes a nonsense defense against Williams before taking on the top two contenders, Terrell and Folley.

The only thing he could have done better here is taking on Spencer instead of Williams. That's decent in my book.

 

Exhibitions are just that,,,,,,nothing more than glorified sparring sessions.
When fighters don't put all their 'cards on the table'.

Cassius Clay did beat Doug Jones in a disputed 10-round decision in 1963.
Most of the boxing journalists had it a Draw.
As for Eddie Machen, his best days in boxing were from 1957 thru 1964.
But he still was 'crafty' in 65' and 66', and really did deserve a title shot.
Ali probably would have cruised to an easy decision win, albeit boring.
Eddie was better than Brian London any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

 

This thread has turned ******ed.