The ATG middleweights

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by bodhi, Nov 27, 2010.


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  1. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I´m a bit tired of the continuous discussions about hws and their ranking, so I thought we could move on to the second "biggest" division and discuss which of the fighters there are genuine ATGs and which aren´t. I´ll start by giving you a list in chronological order of fighters which I consider as ATGs, followed by a list of fighters who I think are sitting on the fence. You guys then argue who should be on either list and who not.

    The ATGs:
    Jack "the Nonpareil" Dempsey
    Bob Fitzsimmons
    Tommy Ryan
    Stanley Ketchel
    Harry Greb
    Mickey Walker
    Freddie Steele
    Tony Zale
    Jake LaMotta
    Sugar Ray Robinson
    Dick Tiger
    Joey Giardello
    Carlos Monzon
    Marvin Hagler
    Bernard Hopkins

    The borderline greats:
    Billy Papke
    Frank Klaus
    Mike O'Dowd
    Tiger Flowers
    Fred Apostoli
    Al Hostak
    Holman Williams
    Charley Burley
    Marcel Cerdan
    Gene Fullmer
    Emille Griffith
    Nino Benvenuti
    Rodrigo Valdez
    Michael Nunn
    James Toney
     
    bodhi, Nov 27, 2010
    bodhi, Nov 27, 2010
    #1
  2. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Top ten list no real order.

    Greb
    Walker
    Robinson
    Fitz
    Darcy
    Jack Dempsey
    Ketchel
    Hagler
    Monzon
    Perhaps Ryan fills out the end maybe
     
    Dempsey1238, Nov 27, 2010
    Dempsey1238, Nov 27, 2010
    #2
  3. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That´s an interesting case, he definitly had potential but I don´t think he did enough before he died. Unlike Ketchel. No Hopkins? I know he doesn´t have a thick resume but his dominance and longevity should have gotten him a spot in there, not?
     
    bodhi, Nov 27, 2010
    bodhi, Nov 27, 2010
    #3
  4. Vic-JofreBRASIL

    Vic-JofreBRASIL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    My list, NO order

    Harry Greb
    SRR
    Carlos Monzon
    Marvin Hagler
    Bernard Hopkins
    Bob Fitzsimmons
    Charley Burley
    Kid McCoy
    Stanley Ketchel
    Jake LaMotta
    Roy Jones Jr
    Tommy Ryan
    Marcel Cerdan
    Mike McCallum
    Carmen Basilio
     
    Vic-JofreBRASIL, Nov 27, 2010
    Vic-JofreBRASIL, Nov 27, 2010
    #4
  5. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I was pretty impress with Darcy on film lol.

    Well he does hold wins over contenders, a few of whom did beat Greb at one point.

    The problem with Hopkins, is that the first 20 or so could fit in the top ten lol.

    The middleweights are a deep divsion.

    I didnt want to cut out say the terror of the 1880's in Jack Dempsey or perhaps even Greb for Hopkins.

    I not real sure were to place him. Since he is also still active the last time I check.
     
    Dempsey1238, Nov 27, 2010
    Dempsey1238, Nov 27, 2010
    #5
  6. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Interesting list. What are your criterias?



    I was also impressed with Darcy but he just didn´t do enough work for me. Still a remarkable fighter, one who is better h2h than his resume shows, much like Roy Jones Jr.

    Yes, middleweight is a deep division, just look at those 30 names I put out and then there are guys like Mike Gibbons, Marcel Thil Ken Overlin, Lou Brouillard, Ceferino Garcia, Rocky Graziano, Bennie Briscoe, Bubi Scholz, Mike McCallum, Sumbu Kalambay, Roy Jones Jr. and quite a few others who I didn´t even mention but I think others would have arguments to fit them in. I think only welterweight and lightweight really rival middleweight in terms of depth.

    Yeah, Hopkins is still active, his next fight is against ring magazine lhw champ Jean Pascal in december. :lol:
     
    bodhi, Nov 27, 2010
    bodhi, Nov 27, 2010
    #6
  7. psychoshane

    psychoshane Active Member Full Member

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    Hmmm this is interesting. I've thought about where Hopkins ranks among the great MW champs. His longevity as champ is impressive but the division was pretty weak when he ruled it.
     
    psychoshane, Nov 27, 2010
    psychoshane, Nov 27, 2010
    #7
  8. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not to mention Sam Langford, The Sullivan Twins, Philadelphia Jack OBrien, Joe Choynski, Charley Mitchell, though some of these may have been better described as heavyweights or light heavyweights, the could compete at the lighter weights. This is one really tough division to rank.
     
    Boilermaker, Nov 27, 2010
    Boilermaker, Nov 27, 2010
    #8
  9. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Not to be a nitpicker, but as much as I admire Carmen Basilio as a welterweight, I could name a dozen strong 160pounders, who would whip
    Basilio who was really a welterweight. To name a few-
    Fred Apostoli
    Dave Shade
    Georgie Abrams
    Lloyd Marshall
    Mike Gibbons
    Jack Dillon etc.
     
    burt bienstock, Nov 27, 2010
    burt bienstock, Nov 27, 2010
    #9
  10. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Left out Ken Overlin of course !
     
    burt bienstock, Nov 27, 2010
    burt bienstock, Nov 27, 2010
    #10
  11. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not sure if they whip Basilio, win or lose, the other guy is going though hell also.
     
    Dempsey1238, Nov 27, 2010
    Dempsey1238, Nov 27, 2010
    #11
  12. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Greb
    Monzon
    Hagler
    Fitzsimmons
    Ketchel
    Burley
    Robinson
    Hopkins
    Walker
    LaMotta

    Probably what my top 10 looks like. Honestly ranking them like this is hard. MW is a deep and hard to tier division.
     
    Swarmer, Nov 27, 2010
    Swarmer, Nov 27, 2010
    #12
  13. la-califa

    la-califa Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Roy Jones Jr. doesn't even rate in your book?
     
    la-califa, Nov 27, 2010
    la-califa, Nov 27, 2010
    #13
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Abraham is up there.
     
    McGrain, Nov 27, 2010
    McGrain, Nov 27, 2010
    #14
  15. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He has three opponents who where contenders:
    Jorge Fernando Castro
    Bernard Hopkins
    Thomas Tate.

    I ask you: is this better than what any of those guys did?
     
    bodhi, Nov 27, 2010
    bodhi, Nov 27, 2010
    #15
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