Sonny Liston vs. Rocky Marciano, Who wins?

Marciano stopped Layne, LaStarza, Walcott x2, Charles, Moore, Louis.

Williams stopped Machen and... umm, and... let me see. I'll get back to you on that one.

and for the record Valdez lost his shot at the title when he couldnt get past Moore.

 

foreman anyone..?

 

I concur RE: bros before hoes.

Anyway, this fight is a tough one, either Liston takes it on cuts or Marciano breaks him down and stops him on his feet. These are the two most plausible outcomes imo.

 

I think the Williams-Machen fight went the distance. It was a draw.

 

Terrell, god damn it. You know what I mean. I'm old and I need my coffee.

 

Let's discuss it rationally. Liston was two inches taller. Liston was about 27 pounds of solid muscle heavier. Liston had a 15 " or so reach advantage. Let's say both hit equally hard with the right but Liston had the harder left hook. Both men were equal on speed and both took a terrific punch. Marciano was prone to cuts and got busted up on numerous times.

In an actual Match how is Marciano going to survive coming in to Liston to be effective ? I just don't see it ... I see him getting hit time and time again with a monster jab till he bleeds , cannot see and gets pummeled ... just a terrible style mach up ..

 

These are the sort of retorts I came up with against the Tyson-Douglas peak/prime type arguments. The whole concept of absolute prime or peak can get so muddling and narrow that anyone can make a case. Where's the made up bull**** by the way? There were Foreman fought like a bum against Ali threads here before.

Not that much worse than Liston being some alcoholic guy that fought 4 rounds in 40 years and got old overnight. You actually believe that first fight was a fix.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong. Marciano, even with his underrated defense, is going to take hell on the way in. However, many times the result of a boxing match is much, much more than the sum of the measurables.

 

Does it then become the sum of the intangibles?:huh

 

I think so.

I also tend to think Marciano gets less credit in these types of fantasy matches (As opposed to matches against Muhammad Ali where many say he has some chance) because he didn't do great against some of the men he faced that were smaller then these types of fighters (Walcott I) and sub 200 pounds, which is that magical HW number for everything... most especially for Marciano (Because the men that dropped him happened to be that). But I don't think these men size was the reason, rather than their attributes, cleverness, and style to make Marciano look bad. I'm speaking heavily on Walcott here.

I also tend to think that of ALL the fighters out there, especially in the HW division. Marciano being knocked down is the most overstated thing even though he was dropped less than 98% of HW champions out there. When it happened, he was dropped by some sort of a cute feint or trap. In both cases he probably didn't see it coming (definitely against Moore) and looked to be in not in any serious trouble. He was most hurt against Moore most, but this was his last fight. He definitely got up a little foggy after being dropped. Charles got his attention but never hurt him or had him in serious trouble. Marciano said he didn't "sting him" like Walcott had. Walcott landed plenty of flush shots that Marciano took extremely well.

For all the exaggerations people complain about on Marciano. I have never seen film of him rubbery legged (As Suzie Q says).

Lastly, Marciano isn't the fastest of starters. I and many realize this. Joe Louis won 2-3 rounds against him in their fight. But I don't expect Liston to blitz Marciano. He's not Foreman, and while he could trap Marciano the way Moore had I don't see it happening. He's not nearly as clever, and Marciano will be as cagey as ever knowing Liston's prowess and power are significant threats. I expect Liston to respect Marciano and his power too. I think Marciano will be down in the first 6 rounds fairly easily. However, I don't think he takes too many really clean shots, and I think he takes the ones he does well. I expect Marciano to see everything he takes. But somewhere in the middle of this fight... where Liston is wondering where this guy is going and why he's not going. And Liston might be losing some steam while Marciano is starting to pick things up I expect to see a change in momentum. This change will produce Liston with a decision to either fight Marciano for the remainder of this fight and take some of the biggest punches he's ever taken, or lay down and quit. I expect Liston to fight but become more tired, more weary, and more troubled as Marciano closes the distance and bangs at his body and jaw. Liston will quit or go down somewhere in the last third of the fight.

I know my prediction sounds Teddy Atlas esque. Don't care. Lastly, I know this prediction makes for Marciano to get "going" and maybe he can't. And maybe he'll fade a lot as he takes punches and Liston will be fine. I don't think it will go like that. Liston wins the early rounds clearly, but Marciano gets closer and closer and gets some lumps in. His lower center of gravity is going to win over eventually I think. And I think Marciano knew and saw something in Liston to know he could've taken him.

 

No doubt. Otherwise we'd all be millionaires many times over .. I just think in these match ups I go for what I find most likely .. however last week I thought Wiliams was a lock ... there you go ...

 

then when was foreman's prime supposed to be if it wasn't the Ali fight
it certainly wasn't post Ali
Foreman just got outclassed and beaten down by Ali period

 

It's definitely funny how a fighter who never lost tends to get **** on during so many of these threads

Too many unknowns with this fight. Can Marciano get inside without taking too much damage against a guy who possesses the most powerful jab in history and is more than good enough on the inside himself? Can Marciano make Liston break by substantial body work and making it a dogfight? Bottom line is that neither guy faced anyone that was that close to each other. The Joe Louis that Marciano fought is close to Sonny stylewise but he was 37 years old. Even so, he picked up rounds and gave a more than respectable performance. Not a lot of film to study to see how Liston would deal with Marciano. Patterson was an excellent swarmer but very, very different from Marciano. Probably the Scrap Iron Johnson fight late in his career would make the best reviewing as Johnson was a come forward brawler who Liston hit with the jab on the way in and then butchered him on the inside (but Johnson is leagues below Marciano).

IMO if I had to bet I'd pick Liston but anyone that's TOO confident in picking this is crazy or beyond arrogant.

 

Whoa- Johanson was lightly regarded until he fought Floyd Pattterson. Patterson openly ducked Machon, Foley and Willams for title shots,choosing instead to fight guys like Peter Radamacher.

Archie was near 50, and a lot of those other fights were after he lost the belt. Floyd was a ducker, pure and simple.

Machon, Foley, and Willams all complained about being blinded- same as Ali.