Larry Holmes decisions Cassius Clay.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Il Duce, Nov 26, 2010.


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  1. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ali would never give Ken Norton credit.
    Just like when he said, Karl Mildenberger was his toughest opponent.
    You guys take Ali's statements in a literal sense.

    On Ken Norton not being as skilled as Patterson, yes most definitely.
    But when Patterson was trying to utilize his skills versus Johannsen I, Liston I and II,
    and Ali I and II, he was dominated.
    Thats (5) brutal beatings.
    his lack of
     
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    #76
  2. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

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    Tell me, how long would Norton have lasted against Liston?
     
    Kalasinn, Nov 28, 2010
    Kalasinn, Nov 28, 2010
    #77
  3. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

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    That system doesn't work

    Patterson wouldve stopped Shavers and Norton
    to say that they are equal in skill is just not true at all, patterson had faster hands better head movement and just a much better fighter overall
     
    tommygun711, Nov 28, 2010
    tommygun711, Nov 28, 2010
    #78
  4. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Tommygun,

    I respect your comments, but how did you come up with that.
    I would give you more credence if you said Patterson would defeat
    Shavers and Norton, but stop both of them.
    In what round would the fights be stopped.

    Kalasinn,
    As for Liston vs Norton.
    Liston by KO in 8.
    See Howard King vs Sonny Liston,, 2/23/60
    A 6' 2" 195 lb., 29-year old King gave Liston fits for the first 6 rounds.
    'Honeyboy' Howard King, with a record of; 33-11-4 (13 KO's)
    Same awkward style as Ken Norton.

    Now Howard King (with 11 losses) goes 8 Rounds with Sonny, and the highly-skilled
    Patterson can't go 6 minutes in (2) fights.
    What am I missing.
     
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    #79
  5. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

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    They are both chinny. Patterson is faster and can avoid those looping punches by shavers and be smart enough to counter both of them.

    keep in mind that by the time Larry fought them, shavers and Norton were not exactly in their prime themselves??

    Floyd has a chance to counter shavers and TKO him in the first round if he goes for it, I see Floyd beating both men to the punch, and going to the body against norton (which he hated)
     
    tommygun711, Nov 28, 2010
    tommygun711, Nov 28, 2010
    #80
  6. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    They are all 'chinny'.
    But not really.
    Shavers had more of stamina problem, he wasn't really 'weak-chinned'.

    Now don't use the Quarry fight as a 'basis point'.
    Jerry Quarry KO 1 over Earnie Shavers, in 12/73.
    Earnie was coming back from a broken jaw that he suffered while sparring with
    Jeff 'Candy Slim' Merritt 4 months earlier.
     
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    #81
  7. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

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    More exscuses
    explain to me then why norton got sparked out by foreman shavers cooney and garcia
    because he cant take a good shot

    Shavers definitely didn't have a very good chin, along with bad stamina. Ali had him out on his feet, Quarry KILLED him, Ellis hurt him in the first round, Lyle stopped him, Stander stopped him
    need i go on

    I pick floyd to avoid Shavers punches and outlast him and stop him late
    Norton though would get hurt by Floyd's bodyshots and would get stopped early on
     
    tommygun711, Nov 28, 2010
    tommygun711, Nov 28, 2010
    #82
  8. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Wait a second there BigGun,

    Lets not shoot Earnie down so quick.

    In the Stander fight, Shavers went all-out trying to knock-out iron-jawwed
    Stander. He ran out of gas, it wasn't because of his chin.

    Jerry Quarry did blast him out, but Earnie was coming back from a damn near close career ending jaw injury.

    Ron Lyle didn't blast Earnie out in 1 Round. He hammered Shavers with brutal punches
    before Earnie went down and out in the 6th. Earnie took some wicked right hands before going down.

    Jimmy Ellis did stun Earnie, but that was it.

    Ali shook Earnie in the 15th round, after 44 minutes of fighting.

    Didn't amateur and slow-punching Pete Rademacher knock Floyd on his
    'goolie', with a 'molasses speed' right hand.
     
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    #83
  9. johnmaff36

    johnmaff36 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Its not really a level playing field pitting a prime-top-of-his-game Holmes against a still growing,but good nontheless, pre-prime Ali. I mean, look at the difference physically between the 2 liston fights.
     
    johnmaff36, Nov 28, 2010
    johnmaff36, Nov 28, 2010
    #84
  10. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    johnmaff,

    Point well-taken.
     
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    #85
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, in pure skill, Patterson is superior.

    It seems like something many newcomers here has to go through. They mistake Ali-revisionism for maturity in boxing knowledge. But to be honest, I always enjoy these discussions for some perverse reason. They used to rile me, but now I just plain enjoy them.
     
    Bokaj, Nov 28, 2010
    Bokaj, Nov 28, 2010
    #86
  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's true Ali/Clay had yet to reach his peak against Liston, but I'd still take him to beat Holmes of 78-82. I do think prime Holmes probably would have beat that version of Liston, but only after a brutal battle.
     
    Bokaj, Nov 28, 2010
    Bokaj, Nov 28, 2010
    #87
  13. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Lets go back to 'square one'
    I stated that the 1979 version of Larry Holmes would decision the
    1964 version of Cassius Clay.
    By 'one' measly point.
    Am I going that far out-on-a-limb.
     
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    #88
  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Fair enough. This is all such speculation that you should really be careful to pounce on others hypothetical predictions. And yours is not absurd.

    But for me personally, I'm a bit surprised that so many give Holmes such a good chance (even against '64 Clay). Ali dominated ATG fighters, while Holmes often had a pretty tough time against the best contenders he met. Holmes is in my top 3-5 bracket as a HW, but I think there is daylight between his and Ali's best wins and how they came about.
     
    Bokaj, Nov 28, 2010
    Bokaj, Nov 28, 2010
    #89
  15. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

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    Bottom line is Floyd would hurt Shavers and beat him to the punch if these guys did
    and floyd had better power then all these men
    very flawed fighter floyd wouldve beat earnie
     
    tommygun711, Nov 28, 2010
    tommygun711, Nov 28, 2010
    #90
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