Why nobody could have matched Joe Louis's record

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Nov 28, 2010.


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  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Joe Louis held the heavyweight title for 11 years, which is about the same period of time that Margaret Thatcher was prime minister. That in itself should provide some frame of reference for how deeply his title reign would have been etched upon the consciousness of contemporary boxing fans. Not only did Louis have the longest title reign of any heavyweight champion, he also had the longest title reign of any champion in any weight class, including the era of multiple title belts. This was done despite the fact that he fought a consistently high level of opposition. In all he fought 33 opponents who were currently ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine, and all but two of them were fought in the period before he retired as champion.

    So what do you have to do to match his record?

    What you would have to do?
    Joe Louis defeated Max Baer 14 months after he turned professional and he defeated Jersey Joe Walcott 13 years later when he was well past his prime. Both of these fighters are top 30 all time heavyweights and he was fighting a consistently high level of opposition in between.

    He was defeated by Max Schmeling in his second year as a professional fighter and would suffer his next defeat at the hands of Ezzard Charles 14 years later. The three fighters who defeated him all won the lineal heavyweight title outside of their fights with Louis and were top 30 all time heavyweights.

    Before his induction into the army Louis defended the title 4.5 times a year on average and the majority of his challengers were ranked contenders.

    What it would take?

    It would have taken the ability to retain focus and train hard after you had won the title, so Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Sonny Liston, Mike Tyson and Riddick Bowe are excluded.

    It would obviously have taken a style suited for longevity, so Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier are excluded despite their superior training habits.

    It would have taken a chin that would not allow the punchers chance to prevail, which rules out Lennox Lewis.

    It would take the ability to cope with fighters of every size, shape and style imaginable.

    It would take the ability to beat elite fighters nine months into your professional career, unless you would stagger the whole title reign forward bodily by a year. It would have taken the ability to beat Max Baer 14 months in and Joe Walcott 13 years latter. That would exclude virtually everybody.

    For most of the great champions, the question is not whether they could have matched Louis’s record, but whether they would have even tried. Most would have taken easier fights less frequently.

    Could anybody else have done it?

    It is my opinion that the only heavyweight with a serious chance of replicating Joe Louis’s title reign is Muhammad Ali, and that scenario is not without issues. Larry Holmes might perhaps have had the capacity for longevity, but I doubt that he would have taken on such stiff opposition so regularly, and if he had he would likely have lost at some point.

    In summary I submit that Louis deserves his position at a consensus top two all time heavyweight, either based on resume or head to head.
     
    janitor, Nov 28, 2010
    janitor, Nov 28, 2010
    #1
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Agree, with the proviso that it is reasonable to guess that Holmes could have done it, if not "proven" (proven in the spirit with which you've approached the subject).

    As a wildcard, i'd offer up Sam Langford's name. He had the longevity, and although he did "slip off" a bit in keeping with some of the names you mention, this was only when it became absolutely apparent that he wouldn't get the title shot, perhaps, and he displayed ten years of total professionalism before this happened...I think Sam could do it, and I don't think Schmeling would have beaten him (Though Walcott might have, twice).
     
    McGrain, Nov 28, 2010
    McGrain, Nov 28, 2010
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  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    janitor, Nov 28, 2010
    janitor, Nov 28, 2010
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  4. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    A great post to put things in perspective. Louis greatness at HW is pretty stamped for most as a 1-2 lock. However, it's not crazy for those that rank him somewhere in the top 10 P4P. I know HWs just don't have the same kind of activity and number of fights. I just don't think they can fight like that like some of the little guys have. However, his skills and this consistency is why so many trainers and historians rank him as a top 10 ATG. Freddie Roach said he was the P4P best fighter ever at some boxing event last year. Consistency can sometimes be under-appreciated. To be on top of your game for so long. It's natural to have bad days or just not feel good but to overcome that adversity and stay atop. It's not easy, even some of the greatest fighters slipped up from time to time during their reign.

    It can be a bit hard evaluating weight-jumping to a consistent title defense reign. They're just different; both are marvelous feats.
     
    PetethePrince, Nov 28, 2010
    PetethePrince, Nov 28, 2010
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  5. kmac

    kmac On permanent vacation Full Member

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    louis' reign was almost matched by dariusz m. who had 24 consecutive title defenses and by joe calzaghe who had 21 title defenses. :) ok, i'm just kidding.
     
    kmac, Nov 28, 2010
    kmac, Nov 28, 2010
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  6. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    The length of that reign, and the dominance of that reign is why JL is my #1 HW.
     
    Swarmer, Nov 28, 2010
    Swarmer, Nov 28, 2010
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  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You sure are kidding!
     
    janitor, Nov 28, 2010
    janitor, Nov 28, 2010
    #7
  8. Zakman

    Zakman ESB's Chinchecker Full Member

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    That post actually makes a strong case for putting him at #1. Where Ali gets him is in overall level of opposition, imo. That's hard to match. Ali has the advantage of having competed in the best era in HW history.
     
    Zakman, Nov 28, 2010
    Zakman, Nov 28, 2010
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  9. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Lets not forget that Louis got that 11 title rein on a few close calls going his way, like Walcott I.

    Over all pretty good. I dont think many guys could have rein 11 years, with or without the Walcott being in the end of the row.
     
    Dempsey1238, Nov 28, 2010
    Dempsey1238, Nov 28, 2010
    #9
  10. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

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    What about Ali?
     
    Kalasinn, Nov 28, 2010
    Kalasinn, Nov 28, 2010
    #10
  11. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Joe Louis was the best.
    Beat everyone who was in front him.
    Yeah, the Walcott I fight was a gift.
    Didn't really duck anyone.
    Did have a couple of easy 'tomato can' opponents.
    Supported his country.
    Donated to the war cause.
    May have looked ordinary in a fight or two.
    Gave us some great fights.
    Never, ever embarrased another fighter.
    Was a class act, in and out of the ring.
    Always came into a fight in good shape.
     
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    #11
  12. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Even if Louis had a gift with Walcott; he showed his best ability in that fight that sets him apart from nearly every hw ever: he was able to adapt, learn from a previous fight, and destroy a man in the rematch, he did it every time and he did it faster and in more deadly fashion

    i would favor him in a 3 fight series over any HW and that includes a prime Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay.
     
    Swarmer, Nov 28, 2010
    Swarmer, Nov 28, 2010
    #12
  13. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    swarmer,

    One thing comes to mind.
    In a 3-fight series.
    Would Ali/Clay be in any condition for a third fight, if they took place
    6-months apart.

    I have visions of what a Louis-Clay fight would be like.
    Remember the Julian Jackson-Terry Norris fight.
    You can figure out which one is who.
    One was a puncher, and the other a stylist-boxer.
     
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    Il Duce, Nov 28, 2010
    #13
  14. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    I think so. Ali could take a ton of punishment. But even then I doubt his or any human's ability to stand through some of Louis' best leather. If he stands through those bombs for 12 rounds 2+ times I don't think he would be. Louis tended not to have 3 fight trilogies for obvious reasons- he conclusively decided who was the better man in every rematch.
     
    Swarmer, Nov 28, 2010
    Swarmer, Nov 28, 2010
    #14
  15. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think Walcott should have goting a 3rd match.

    Leading to round 11, Louis was down and and loseing on points. Louis luck out when Walcott traded with him in round 11 and Louis made sure Walcott would not get out of that exchange with out a knockout or at least a knockdown.

    It was almost like Louis Conn I all over again.
     
    Dempsey1238, Nov 28, 2010
    Dempsey1238, Nov 28, 2010
    #15
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