What if Johnson and Jeffries

McVey, thanks for the comment about that French serial. Did the French writer just write down whatever, and Johnson signed off on it? Did Johnson dictate (even in English) any of it?

 

Things I learned on ESB:

One champion can walk out of 1910 and be of championship calibre in any era, exalted for his transcendent ring genius.

Another champion, from a few years earlier and carrying a better championship resume, would get pummeled by a b-level contender from the 70's.

 

Nice to know your time here has not been entirely wasted.:good

Seriously.

Who would suggest that Jeffries would not be a top contender in any era?

 

It was a series of snippets written in French, then described as" "memoirs".
It did not sell and was buried, to be later repackaged ,rebranded and translated into English and ," enhanced", for the English speaking market ,it was again a non seller.
Johnson did not dictate any of it what so ever.

 

You must make your own mind up abaout Mendoza ,I could not possibly comment.

 

It would be rather easy to rebut this argument and the," facts", used to reinforce it.
In fact I did it earlier today, but then accidentally erased it before posting it.
I really cannot be arsed to do it again ,so I will make an abbreviated argument against using common opponents as a guide to possible outcomes of fights, and the respective merits of the fighters involved.

Max Baer fights Max Schmeling, he kos him in 10rds.
Max Baer fights Joe Louis, Louis destroys him in 4 one sided rounds .
Joe Louis takes on Max Schmeling.
Schmeling, obviously gets the **** kicked out of him right?
WRONG. Schmeling stops Louis in 12 rds.
Joe Frazier fights Ali 3 times and gives him life and death in all 3, winning one .
George Foreman fights Frazier ,and uses him as a yo yo, absolutely beats the **** out of him in 2 rds of licensed murder.

Ali takes on Foreman,Foreman kos him right?
WRONG . Ali kos Foreman.

Norton gives Ali 3 barn burner fights ,many think he was entitled to at least 2 decisions in the trilogy, some all 3.

Norton challenges Foreman ,and gets wasted in 2rds.

Foreman takes on Ali,well, you know the result.

Ever heard of styles make fights?

Add to this the development of each individual fighter at the time he met a given opponent, factor in, whether he was in shape, having problems in his training camp, with his wife/ manager /mistress.

We are talking about human beings not automatons.

Using common opponents to predict how fights would go ,especially those way back in time, when verdicts were often, shall we say," unpredictable",is, I believe a fatally flawed argument.

Having said that it, occurs to me it might very well suit you.:good

 

I have to disagree on some of the things being said about Jeffries here. He had to lose an enormous amount of weight in a short amount of time training for a fight he didn't really believe in. According to reports he had swelled up to over 300 pounds during retirement and had to work hard to drop it fast. This does indeed sap your strength. I'm not so sure one can say that the Jeffries who fought Johnson was as "strong" as he was in his prime. Quick and radical weight loss weakens a man.

According to insiders Jeffries looked terrible in training camp. He was depressed, unfocused, cantankerous, moody, morose and just plain unhappy.

All things considered he was hardly a candidate to defeat a prime Jack Johnson.

 

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Jeffries looks in fair shape to me.
I don't suggest he ws still the," Iron Man", but he did have over a year to train down to weight for this fight.
He did not go over 300lbs ,in fact reports suggest he did not reach it at any time.
Jeffries did indulge a healthy appetite for whisky after he retired ,and he a was a heavy smoker.
I would have thought that in the initial rounds Jeffries ,if he ever could, would have matched , if not, mastered Johnson for strength inside.
Johnson was clearly the boss in strength from the start however.
Jack later said , he knew as soon as he bested Jeff at close quarters ,the result was a foregone conclusion.

 

I don't believe Alfalfa farming, could be accurately described as an inactive lifestyle.

 

Manual labour is vaerry good for building functional strength. I have been a manual labourer in the past and took up powerlifting after I stopped. I am generaly stronger now, but there are some aspects of the manual workers strength that I have never been able to replicate. While Jeffries was an active fighter he was doing strength training exercises with pulleys, and carrying sacks of sand. I would hazard a guess that he was stronger then than when he fought Johnson.

Even if he wasn't, we have to put things into context. Johnson himself was one of the strongest of all the lineal heavyweight champions, so getting bossed by Johnson would not necesarily mean that his strength was merely an artefact of the size of his opposition.

 

Don't be fooled by the cosmetic repairs on Jeff. Perhaps the reports of being over 300 were indeed an exaggeration, but the fact that he had gone way overweight during his retirement is pretty well agreed upon. Photos of Jeff refereeing fights in his post-retirement years support this(he was FAT!).

As you stated he had dissipated and was not living a life of a fighter. Drinking, smoking, eating whatever suits the fancy.....plus he was just plain getting older.

Couple that with the fact that mentally he was just not there and you have little chance of Jeffries showing Johnson anything. As far as strength goes I doubt Johnson could have muscled him around so easily in Jeff's fighting prime. Could he have won a test of strength? Perhaps. It's not totally unreasonable. But for posters to use this fight as proof-positive that Johnson was "stronger" than Jeffries is a bit much.

 

Testing:

 

Please explain what bearing this has on the respective merits of Jeffries and Johnson ,in a prime for prime shootout?
This is a palpable lie, the fight went its scheduled 10rds with the result being declared a draw.Jack Johnson broke a bone in his arm in the 3rd round.
Two posters have put up newspapers, and accounts of this TEN ROUND contest.
Please provide proof that Johnson deliberately fouled Jeanette,and that he was in danger of losing.
Otherwise stop saying it.
Johnson and Jeanette met 7 times Jeanette won just the one, on a foul.

Johnson scaled 185lbs to Langford's 156lbs. Johnson was 23lbs short of his optimum weight of 208lbs.
Langford's best weight was around 175lbs - 180lbs,at most 24lbs short of his optimum weight.
Langford was the more experienced fighter ,with 50 contests under his belt.
None of the fights with McVey were close.
First fight.
"Johnson won every round,he out boxed,and out hustled Mcvey, and knocked him down three times."

Second fight.
"There was nothing but Johnson to the contest on October 27th."
Los Angeles Herald.

"Sam McVey was hammered last night , until his face looked like a goat had chewed it."
The Times
" Jack Johnson pounded him wherever he pleased".
The Times.
This was when the L A Times wrote.
"The color line gag does not go now. It is play or pay, in the fighting business.
Johnson has met all comers in his class; has defeated each and every one ."
"Now he stands ready to box for the worlds championship.he is a man who would wear that honour with decent grace if it fell on his shoulders.
The public through the daily news papers demands a fight for the championship on behalf of Jack Johnson ".
Sounds like Johnson was thought of as more than" just a contender "to me.

Third Fight.
He showed before last night's fight was ten minutes old that he had McVey thoroughly at his mercy; yet he played cat and mouse with the beet field warrior. "
W.W. Naughton . San Francisco Examiner.

"The crowd made up its mind that the Oxnard heavyweight hadn't one chance in a thousand,and began to boo Johnson for hanging back".
San Francisco Examiner.

"Finally ,just thirty seconds to go in the last round, Johnson mounted a furious assault, sending McVey reeling back toward the ropes.As he bounced off them again Johnson caught him with a perfect right hand"

After he woke up, McVey asked his trainer Spider Kelly ,"was it a draw"?
Kelly replied, "yes,and they robbed us."

Three fights. three one sided beat downs.
END OF.

" A historian should embrace the truth".
You are no historian ,and you would not recognize the truth, if it reared up and bit you on the arse.


That's enough for now,but,PLENTY MORE TO COME.
Meanwhile think up some more lies, for me to demolish.:hi:

 

Do you entertain the remote possibility that Jack Johnson just might have been physically the stronger man at any stage of their careers?
Who did Jeffries boss with his strength in fights?
Corbett 27lbs lighter ? NO
Fitz 34lbs lighter? NO
Sharkey 32lbs lighter? NO.
Choynski 63 lbs lighter? NO.
Tell you what, name a top fighter Jeffries outmuscled?

 

Jeffries was 35 ,Johnson 32. Johnson lived a life of dissipation all the time ,but he was in shape for Jeffries , and it showed.
I have never suggested that Jeffries was remotely near his prime when he fought Johnson, but there is a possibility he could have matched him for strength early on, imo. He did not, Johnson handled him with ease, it might not just be a case of overating Jeffries condition at the time, but also ,of underating Johnson's strength.:think