Just watched Chuvalo-Quarry... B.S. Stoppage?

Nice List Big Jake,

George was also the first fighter, to make Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali go from
"Superman' to 'Human'.

 

i hear ali passed blood for 2 weeks after that fight in toronto,march 1966.the first boxer to take him the distance in a championship match

bigjake

 

Im just not one of those people who give a lot credit to a guy simply because he takes a good beating. Gatti was "tough" but Gatti was **** IMO.

George may have stayed in the rankings a long time but its a bit mystifying how considering on the occasions he fought other top ten guys he lost barring a couple of fights (like Quarry). If he was legitimately a top ten guy (meaning there were less than ten people in the world who could have beaten him... debatable) then he was certainly one of the weaker consistent top ten HWs ever. Look at the guys record and his performances. Nearly everytime he stepped up he was beaten and it wasnt exactly rare that those beatings were up one side of the ring and down the other. I understand hes part of this cult of masculinity where in toughness and being able to take a licking is revered by some but to me that just goes only so far.

Reminds me of the story of Sugar Ray Robinson in the amateurs. He was up against this big ugly kid whose face was mean and a mass of scars. Just a really scary, tough looking dude. Robinson was scared shitless and told his trainer. His trainer who was a realist like myself took one look at the guy and said, "if he could fight he wouldnt look like that." Robinson went on to dominate and beat the guy. That basically sums up my view of Chuvalo. If his toughness were worth as much as his legend then his accomplishments in the sport would be a lot greater. He can brag that he was in with Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Ellis, Bonavena, Quarry, Mathis, Terrell, Patterson, Foley, etc. He was, but he lost to everyone of those guys, and some who arent even as good as them (hello, he lost damn near every round to Pete Rademacher), the only guy on that list he beat was Quarry on a debateable stoppage in a fight he was losing in one sided fashion.

Then they say "but he was a contender for a decade", yeah, well, between those losses to big names look at his wins and you have to wonder based on what? His resume outside of a handful of wins spread out over damn near 20 years and his usually one sided losses is pretty underwhelming.

 

See this is the B.S. Im talking about. Chuvalo went 15 rounds with Ali and the best he could do is win three rounds on 1 card. The other two cards had him winning only 1 round. Somehow this fight is an achievement for Chuvalo. It kind of boggles the mind. Then Chuvalo always brags that he went dancing that night. You know what? If had a shot at the HW championship and lost damn near every ****ing round and then had enough energy to go dancing afterwards... maybe I didnt take as many chances as I could have to win the title? Ever hear of leaving it all in the ring? Chuvalo obviously didnt, but hey, he stayed the distance. Hes one of the few people who has made a cottage industry out of perpetually finishing second place...

Actually I take that back. He only won one round, two were even. Even worse...

 

Ali called him the toughest he fought pre-layoff though, and watching the fight it's obvious that he dealt out some punishment while giving it his all. His style simply wasn't made for winning rounds as he mostly worked the body while Ali was flurrying away at the head. Very difficult for any man to win more than a couple of rounds against a peak Ali.

Chuvalo came up with meaningful wins and strings of KO's after tough losses so it's no wonder he stayed in the rankings for as long as he did. He also performed respectably even in losing against Patterson, Ali, Terrell.

His real problem was that he was very, very slow, especially compared to the average heavyweight in the 60's and 70's.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ut_2v4npU[/ame]

 

give it a break young fellow,if you don't care for chuvalo why even respond here?others in here do like him pisses you off i kno.sounds like you have a grudge against the man,****
i don't care for a lot of boxer,i just don't
bother posting about them.whats your problem???

bigjake

 

Unless Im mistaken the title of the thread was asking others if they thought Chuvalos win over Quarry was a BS stoppage. I weighed in and some who think Chuvalo was something special have a problem with my opinion. You are entitled to yours and Im entitled to mine. Beyond that I dont know what else to tell you other than that Im not going to stop posting in threads such as this simply because my opinion diverges from yours. I would suggest that if YOU didnt like someone suggesting that Quarry-Chuvalo was a questionable stoppage (which is a popular opinion) then post somewhere that you arent going to get your feelings hurt, young man.

 

Id like thiese meaningful wins, between the losses, that kept him in the rankings spelled out for me because you can make a clear argument that from his loss to Patterson in 1965 until his victory over Quarry in 1969 that he had done nothing to stay in the HW rankings. You can also argue that even in those times when he did have a win over a guy like Doug Jones or Jerry Quarry, which would have bumped him into a ranking position, he usually either lost very one sided soon after or soon before which could have dumped him out of the rankings or given others pause for ranking him. We all know, particularly in this day and age, that simply maintaining an unbeaten streak of a few fights, particularly in the HW division means dick. And as bad as that style of promotion is today go look at Chuvalos strings of unbeatens and tell me the retreads and never weres that he was building those streaks upon really meant anything. When Dick Whipperman is the best name on one of your best streaks that pretty much sums up how serious you are about fighting and beating the best.

 

I've listened to much here; Jake's been posting for quite some time, he's an old timer like me. He's met George and he loves the sport, you could cut him some slack. Tho not championship caliber, Chuvalo would hold his own against many ATG's in any era.
One thing I've gleaned from all these posts and never thought about???
If Jerry (who I love) had stuck to business and not got careless, he would have stopped George on cuts AND...perhaps would have had that 1970 bout with a young Foreman, and all the Quarry nut-huggers (who have ALWAYS said that Jerry had JUST the right style for him) would have seen Foreman take Quarry completely out of his element and stop him at some point.
Come on guys...it all boils down to styles................

 

In 1958, Chuvalo KO'd James J. Parker in one round, drew with top 10 ranked Alex Miteff, beat well-known trial horses Howard King & Julio Mederos.

In 1959, he KO'd Yvon Durelle for the Canadian heavyweight title and also stopped competent journeyman Frankie Daniels without suffering any losses that year.

1960-1961 he fought a series of close fights with fellow Canadian Bob Cleroux, edged top 10 ranked Alex Miteff and KO'd tough journeyman Willi Besmanoff.

1963 he came back with a win over Mike DeJohn and a draw with Tony Alongi.

1964 he KO'd Doug Jones who had recently given a close fight to Cassius Clay and KO'd Folley.

1965 he went toe-to-toe with Floyd Patterson in the fight of the year, and lost a close decision. Also lost a title shot to Ernie Terrell, though he was coming on in the late rounds.

1966 started out badly for him as he lost to unheralded Corletti, but then got lucky as Terrell pulled out of a fight with Ali and Chuvalo came in as a late replacement. Chuvalo gave Ali the toughest challenge of his career up to that point and won back the respect of media who had called him a push-over.

A close loss to Bonavena followed, Chuvalo came back with a string of 12 knockouts. Lost to a rising Joe Frazier when his eye orbit broke gruesomely.

1968 he defeated then highly regarded Manuel Ramos by KO, but lost decisively to Buster Mathis.

The next year he scored an upset win over top rated Jerry Quarry. After that win, it was mostly downhill for him as a contender although he put up respectable efforts against Ali and Ellis.

 

Its possible. Ive never said Quarry would beat Foreman. He was definately a guy who could never seem to win the big ones. BUT, Foreman did avoid him. Foreman admits this and all the old timers from the California gyms where they worked out together said Foreman wouldnt even spar with him. People have dismissed Foreman saying he ducked Quarry as BS but Ive seen him say it at least twice, maybe more. Personally I would probably lean toward a Foreman stoppage similar to that of Chuvalo unless Quarry boxed like he did when he was young. When he boxed he was a damn good fighter. When he lost his head and slugged he became one dimensional and easy to hit. That aint working against Foreman. If Quarry boxed it could have looked like the first Foreman-Peralta fight with Quarry being very competetive and possibly pulling out a victory. If Quarry slugged my money is on a fight similar to Foreman-Chuvalo. Either way you have to favor Foreman even if Quarry fought at his best.

 

hello jowcol,i think we both been on this site since early 2000's like 2002 it crashed and we had to sign up again in 2004.i do beleave we chatted many times before that crash,how are you anyway??i'm 63 btw

bigjake

 

Will keep it simple.
George Chuvalo won over Jerry Quarry.
Big win for George, that he needed and came through.
That win did salvage his career, and gave him a much-needed boost.
A bad loss there, would have put him in a deep-hole.

George was in the inevitable position of getting a good money fight at
Madison Square Garden versus George Foreman or Mac Foster.
George got George Foreman.
Jerry Quarry got Mac Foster.

 

"In 1958, Chuvalo KO'd James J. Parker in one round, drew with top 10 ranked Alex Miteff, beat well-known trial horses Howard King & Julio Mederos."

So a draw against a contender a victory over Parker who was making a comeback after two years off combined with victories over well known trial horses?? That gets you a ranking? Come on... He also lost in fairly one sided fashion to Pat McMurtry who lost his next fight on a one round TKO to a very faded Valdez, who himself would lose his next fight. Clearly George was not rdy for primetime.

"In 1959, he KO'd Yvon Durelle for the Canadian heavyweight title and also stopped competent journeyman Frankie Daniels without suffering any losses that year."

Only to lose his very next fight to Pete Rademacher in one sided fashion. Daniels ended his career with a less than 50% win ration and was coming off two losses and a draw going into the Chuvalo fight and was several years removed from any even halfway meaningful victory. It should also be noted that Durelle had done nothing to garner any attention at HW particularly not since getting blown out in three rounds by Archie Moore at LHW.

"1960-1961 he fought a series of close fights with fellow Canadian Bob Cleroux, edged top 10 ranked Alex Miteff and KO'd tough journeyman Willi Besmanoff."

Lets keep the spin rolling... He lost a three fight series to Cleroux (one again a case of Chuvalo somehow getting a bump for losing, strange, usually a loss is detrimental... Willie Besmanoff??? Lets back up here. Besmanoff was one of Chuvalo's favorite record padders. He couldnt punch for **** and was slow as molasses. Which was great because he could make the ultra slow Chuvalo look like a freight train. When he faced Chuvalo he had won SEVEN of his last TWENTY-SIX fights, was coming off a two fight losing streak two to less than stellar fighters.

"1963 he came back with a win over Mike DeJohn and a draw with Tony Alongi."

Theres another of those pesky draws. Sorry no credit there, particularly not against a fighter like Alongi. Dejohn was fighting his last fight against Chuvalo and had already been thoroughly exposed with eleven losses, several of which came in the last two years and half of which were knockout losses. But then Georgie goes on to lose damn near every round to Foley.

"1964 he KO'd Doug Jones who had recently given a close fight to Cassius Clay and KO'd Folley."


Best win to this point of Chuvalos career and this is the point when he should have legitimately been considered a top ten guy. BUT then after another pointless record padding fight he loses to Floyd Patterson who if there was ever a legitimate great that Chuvalo, if he is as tough and hard hitting as his fans say, should beat it was the smaller, more fragile Floyd. Instead Floyd took the fight to Chuvalo all the way, stood toe to toe with him and took the decision. Chuvalo then bitched, moaned, and cried that he was robbed (as he would do several times during his career)


"1965 he went toe-to-toe with Floyd Patterson in the fight of the year, and lost a close decision. Also lost a title shot to Ernie Terrell, though he was coming on in the late rounds."

After Patterson he took a handful of record padding wins, once again, and then got a title shot based on I dont know what and lost damn near every round once again to Terrell.

"1966 started out badly for him as he lost to unheralded Corletti, but then got lucky as Terrell pulled out of a fight with Ali and Chuvalo came in as a late replacement. Chuvalo gave Ali the toughest challenge of his career up to that point and won back the respect of media who had called him a push-over."

See this is all spin. He got lucky as **** to get handed a title shot based on absolutely nothing and managed to win a single round. A SINGLE ROUND! And this is coming off a loss to a complete nobody. Corletti, who had won ONE of his last eight fights and been knocked out twice. Yet somehow Chuvalo wants us to believe that he was robbed against Patterson and Terrell and made some kind of heroic stand against Ali...

"A close loss to Bonavena followed, Chuvalo came back with a string of 12 knockouts. Lost to a rising Joe Frazier when his eye orbit broke gruesomely."

Do you see a pattern here? I asked for details on his strings of victories that kept him in the rankings and you focus on his losses. Because his victories were against such pedestrian, hell, below pedestrian competition, that all those years he was a challenger you can hardly justify it. "A string of 12 knockouts." I can knock out 12 old ladies it doesnt make me a contender. Like I said that string is one of his longest strings of wins and the best name on there is Dick ****ing Wipperman. Thats pretty pathetic.

"1968 he defeated then highly regarded Manuel Ramos by KO, but lost decisively to Buster Mathis."

He defeated Ramos and again, at the time this was a good win, in hind sight its pretty meaningless but at the time it would have legitimately got him a ranking but then he loses in ridiculously one sided fashion, once again, to Buster Mathis and he got his ass handed to him by Mathis. If Chuvalo was all that some have him cracked up to be then this simply should not have happened. But thats the case with so many of his losses.

"The next year he scored an upset win over top rated Jerry Quarry. After that win, it was mostly downhill for him as a contender although he put up respectable efforts against Ali and Ellis."

And I agree, Quarry was another win that regardless of whether I agree with its merits its a win and he deserved to be ranked off of it but I completely disagree with your assessment of the Ali and Ellis fights. Ellis kicked his ass as bad as Mathis. The scores werent as wide but Ellis had that fight under control from beginning to end even with (if memory serves) suffering a KD. This was was another fight, like the Patterson fight, that was very winnable for Chuvalo if he was really as good as some rate him. A smaller, shaky chinned guy, with a decent right hand but nothing too major. Chuvalo should have been able to wear him down, walk him down, and stop him late. He didnt even come close. Against Ali, the second time around, Chuvalo was listless and simply hung around. He didnt take any chances and was given only one round by the judges with maybe another or two even at best. This is one of Chuvalos most dissinterested performances IMO.