Jack Johnson's title run

Mr Butt · Dec 10, 2010

Unforgiven said: ↑

My opinion, Johnson's challengers were weak. Can't fault him for Burns, the champion, and Jeffries, who was still considered champion by many at the time they fought Johnson. The rest were weak challengers, second-raters really.
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this is very much right , the only thing i would add is that johnson as most champions did was eager to make the most money for the smallest risk be it in the ring or on the stage .

on a side note mendoza dont you feel a bit of a dumb ass

mcvey · Dec 10, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

Hey *******, you know Munore was 210 for the match. You even admitted the mistake after I posted the news report which listed the weights!!! Must I repost your own words? God you are dumb.

Kennedy fought near and over 200 pounds. Jeffries crushed Munroe in two. Johnson, took an out of shape Munroe the distance. Can you distinguish between the two? Probably not.
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Munore?????? Was he an Italian challenger?
I revised my opinion on MUNROE'S weight and posted it on this site in a post addressed to you

I'll put it in Mendoza speak
Eye resived mie oponionon onn Muore's wait,when he wass a cotneder..See You later . Rainman
Dumb, you are not dumb ,you're not that bright!!!!!!!!!

mcvey · Dec 12, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

Unforgiven,

http://www.ringsideboxingshow.com/BIOTommyBurnsIBHOF

I agree, Johnson fought 2nd raters in title matches. You wanted to see information that Burns was ill? OK, read the below link. It says:

This content is protected

This content is protected

http://www.ringsideboxingshow.com/BIOTommyBurnsIBHOF
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Burns was five feet seven inches, and his best fighting weight was 175 pounds.
Tracy Callis From Cyber Zone

His best fighting weight was 174 pounds.
Dan Cuoco Director of IBRO.Cyber Zone
THis is, according to you ,"the best researched boxing site".
Burns scaled 168lbs for Johnson, who was 192lbs.
That means Burns was 6lbs at most below his best weight.Not 15 pounds.
Johnson scaled 192lbs 16 lbs below his best weight of 208lbs.:good

janitor · Dec 12, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

I thought I'd start an open discussion on Johnsons title defense opponents.

Let's examine who the opponent was, what his record was, and how many times he was Ko'd prior and after the title match, and how the match itself went down.

Johnson won the title from 5'7" Burns. There is not doubt Johnson won the match. There is also no doubt Burns was ill and 15 pounds under his ideal weight when the match happened. Burns had a jaundice, and begged the promoter to postpone the fight. He was told if you want to get paid, you fight on schedule. So he did, and Johnson won the title from the shortest champion of all time, who happened to be ill.

Johnson's first official title defense was a 6 round affair ( why not 15 or at least 10? ) vs Jack O'Brien. O'Brien was a very good middle weight. His record coming into the fight was 129 wins, 7 losses and 21 ND/ Draws. Clearly O'Brien was a worthy title opponent. The weights of the fighters were O'Brien at 161 pounds, and Johnson at 205 pounds. Johnson had a 44 pound weight advantage. The fight was ruled a draw, but had a decision been allowed, the news papers suggest O'Brien was the better by a shade. After this fight, O'Brien was Ko'd twice. I am not impressed with Johnsons skill or power in this fight. He was the heavyweight. To be shown up and embarrassed by a good middleweight is not the mark of greatness.

Johnson's second title defense was vs Ross. Ross was a " bum " who came into the fight with an 11-9-2 record. Arguably the worst record of any man to receive a lineal title shot. To make matters worse Ross's ring record leading up to the fight was an abysmal 1 win, 4 losses and 2 draws in his last 7 fights. How or why he got a title shot remains a mystery! If someone asks you who was the worst heavyweight contender ever to get a title shot, Ross is good pick. Indeed Ross was KO'd 4 times before meeting Johnson, and 5 times after meeting Johnson. Johnson beat Ross easily enough, but so what. He did not knock him out.

Johnson's third title defense was vs Kaufman. Kaufman was a stiff " White Hope ", but he did have a good ring record of 20-1 coming into the match. He was only KO'd once prior top the match by O'Brien, which was the best fighter he fought in his first 21 fights. Johnson easily defeated Kaufman but could not score a knock down. However it was clear that Kaufman was in fact a nothing special at all. Indeed, he was badly knocked out 4 times after this match.

Johnson's fourth title match was vs Middle Weight champ Stanley Ketchel had a nice record of 51-3-4 coming into the match, but he was only 5'9" and 170 Pounds. Johnson weighed in at 205. This meant that Johnson had a 35 pound advantage in weight. Ketchel had a proven chin at middle weight. Indeed he was only knocked out once. The first 11 rounds of the fight were mostly a boring affair. I do agree that Johnson played a bit with Ketchel, however things got inserting in the 12th round. Ketchel floored Johnson. Johnson was hurt and shaken up, but got up and scored his best Ko on film, but fell down himself during the process. Ketchel was out like a light. Yet Ketchel as a middle weight floored and hurt Johnson with basically the first solid punch he landed during the fight. This has to make me question Johnsons chin, which in previous fights could be exposed by power punchers.

Johnson's fifth title match was vs. Jeffries. Jeffires retired undefeated as the champ, cleaning almost every good fighter in his entire era. Jeffries was 35 years old when the match happened. He was in-active for 6 years, which is a career for some fighters, and lost 100 pounds of fat to get into shape. Never in boxing history has a man been in-active this long and come back to be champion. Johnson was wary of Jeffries early and often clinched. The first four rounds were likely 2-2 on the cards. Jeffries started running out of gas as early as round 5. He was visibly slower than he was in his prime yet he managed to cut Johnson, and nearly knocked Johnson down from body shots of the mid to late rounds of the fight. I have a source if people want to see this. Check the on line Unforgivable Blackness link. Johnson moved in for the kill when Jeffries had nothing left. Jeffries did not quit or foul out like Johnson did in the past. He gave it his best under the circumstances, and went out on his shield. IMO, this fight is what Johnsons legacy is mainly based on because Jeffries was a legendary fighter in his own time. Jeffries was the only really good " name " heavyweight that Johnson beat during his title reign. At least on paper. The match meant little in a boxing sense as many great old champions often lose fights when they are past their primes. Think Louis vs Marciano, or Ali vs Holmes.

Johnson's sixth match was vs Fireman Flynn. Flynn had a record of 29-8 with 14 ND's or draws. He was Ko'd 5 times in prior to the match and 15 times after this match! Johnson failed to floor Flynn. The fight ended when Johnson would hold Flynn's head, and then hit him, while Flynn would foul with head butts. The official result in a dismal match should read Johnson win via DQ in 8.

Johnson's seventh title defense was a sham. He fought black Journeyman Jim " battling " Johnson. Jim Johnson had a very suspect record of 14-12-3 coming into the match. Jim Johnson was Ko'd twice prior to the match and 5 more times after the match. The fight was scheduled for 20 rounds of boxing according to the best researched website ( Cyber boxing zone ). NEws reads says Jim Battling was the better!. Somehow, the fight was ruled a draw and Jack Johnson kept his title!

Johnson's eight title match was vs a very mediocre Frank Moran. Moran had a 25-9-4 record coming into this fight. He was Ko'd twice before this fight, and five times after the fight. The fight was shockingly close. Like many of Johnson's other title fights there were no knockdowns. I saw a good 40+ minutes of action that included most of the rounds. Johnson seemed to barely edge Moran.

Johnsons final title match vs Giant Jess Willard. Willard was not very fast or skilled, but he could punch, was durable, and was in his prime. His record was a fair one at 23-5-1. Johnson was older at 37, but Willard himself was no spring chicken at 34. Johnson's weight for this fight was 205, which lower than all of his title fights save one. Eventually Willard's durability and stamina won the day. Johnson slowed down, and then Willard knocked him out with one solid punch. I don't hold this loss against Johnson due to his age, but Willard was likely Johnson's most formidable title opponent.

Summary: Johnson in his title reign only scored two Ko's. They were vs a middle weight and a washed up old x champ. As I chronicled many of the fighters were knocked out before or after facing Johnson, yet Johnson himself failed to score KO or knockdowns. Johnson drew with a middle weight and did not look good ( O' Brien ). He was knocked down by another middle weight. ( Ketchel ) . He got beat on by journeyman is Battling Jim Johnson. Johnson avoided the best challengers in Langford, Smith ( who tko'd him in a 4 round ex match ) , McVey, and Jeanette. Although he was older, Johnson was Ko'd by his toughest title match opponent in Willard.

While Jack Johnson was champ, top fighters such as Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Luther McCarthy, Gunboat Smith, Sam McVey and Jack Dillon did not get lineal heavyweight title shots.. These men were more formidable than ANY Johnson title defense opponent in the era. You could argue between Willard, Dillon, and McCarthy. Big time money was up to make some of these matches with Langford, Jeanette, or McVey. And let's be honest, Willard was not as a good as Langford, Jeanette, Gunboat Smith, or McVey. Duckage thy name is Johnson.

As a title defense run, I rate Johnson's the weakest of all the great champions. Far below Jeffries, Dempseys, Louis, Marcianos, Pattersons Ali, Holmes, Tysons, and Lewis. I continue to believe that Johnson ring prowess pre 1906 was over rated and his title reign was a lack luster run vs fighters who were too small, to old, or simply journeyman.

^^I Might edit and tinker with this post later.
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Extracts from your upcoming book, "The assasination of James J Jeffries by the coward Jack Johnson".

Mendoza · Dec 13, 2010

janitor said: ↑

Extracts from your upcoming book, "The assasination of James J Jeffries by the coward Jack Johnson".
Click to expand...

I don't see many debating the facts as I listed them.

mcvey · Dec 13, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

I don't see many debating the facts as I listed them.
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Well ,here's a little "fact that you listed".

" Johnson weighed 205lbs ,which lower than all of his title fights save one".
[I included the mistake of omitting" was" after which, just so everyone knows you wrote it]

JOHNSON SCALED 225LBS FOR THE WILLARD FIGHT, HEAVIER THAN HE WAS IN ANY FIGHT BEFORE.
AS LATE AS 1926 ,AT THE AGE OF 48 ,HE ONLY SCALED 218lbs FOR A BOUT WITH PAT LESTER.

Your assertion that Smith tkod Johnson is refuted by Smith himself in a taped interview in 1972, which he gave to Pete Heller, for his book," In This Corner". Smith stated that he knocked Johnson through the ropes in a sparring match.
No doubt Heller is still in possesson of this tape, if you want to keep spreading these lies perhaps you should contact him and tell him he is wrong?

On Jack Dillon as a suitable opponent for Johnson while he was champion. I detailed Dillon's record against heavyweights ,during Johnson's title tenure and, blew a hole in any credibility Dillon may have possessed as a heavyweight title threat ,during this time.
The Character Assassination Of Jack Johnson, by the Wanker MENDOZA. Catchy title for your book Rainman .:rofl

mcvey · Dec 13, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

I thought I'd start an open discussion on Johnsons title defense opponents.

Let's examine who the opponent was, what his record was, and how many times he was Ko'd prior and after the title match, and how the match itself went down.

Johnson won the title from 5'7" Burns. There is not doubt Johnson won the match. There is also no doubt Burns was ill and 15 pounds under his ideal weight when the match happened. Burns had a jaundice, and begged the promoter to postpone the fight. He was told if you want to get paid, you fight on schedule. So he did, and Johnson won the title from the shortest champion of all time, who happened to be ill.

Johnson's first official title defense was a 6 round affair ( why not 15 or at least 10? ) vs Jack O'Brien. O'Brien was a very good middle weight. His record coming into the fight was 129 wins, 7 losses and 21 ND/ Draws. Clearly O'Brien was a worthy title opponent. The weights of the fighters were O'Brien at 161 pounds, and Johnson at 205 pounds. Johnson had a 44 pound weight advantage. The fight was ruled a draw, but had a decision been allowed, the news papers suggest O'Brien was the better by a shade. After this fight, O'Brien was Ko'd twice. I am not impressed with Johnsons skill or power in this fight. He was the heavyweight. To be shown up and embarrassed by a good middleweight is not the mark of greatness.

Johnson's second title defense was vs Ross. Ross was a " bum " who came into the fight with an 11-9-2 record. Arguably the worst record of any man to receive a lineal title shot. To make matters worse Ross's ring record leading up to the fight was an abysmal 1 win, 4 losses and 2 draws in his last 7 fights. How or why he got a title shot remains a mystery! If someone asks you who was the worst heavyweight contender ever to get a title shot, Ross is good pick. Indeed Ross was KO'd 4 times before meeting Johnson, and 5 times after meeting Johnson. Johnson beat Ross easily enough, but so what. He did not knock him out.

Johnson's third title defense was vs Kaufman. Kaufman was a stiff " White Hope ", but he did have a good ring record of 20-1 coming into the match. He was only KO'd once prior top the match by O'Brien, which was the best fighter he fought in his first 21 fights. Johnson easily defeated Kaufman but could not score a knock down. However it was clear that Kaufman was in fact a nothing special at all. Indeed, he was badly knocked out 4 times after this match.

Johnson's fourth title match was vs Middle Weight champ Stanley Ketchel had a nice record of 51-3-4 coming into the match, but he was only 5'9" and 170 Pounds. Johnson weighed in at 205. This meant that Johnson had a 35 pound advantage in weight. Ketchel had a proven chin at middle weight. Indeed he was only knocked out once. The first 11 rounds of the fight were mostly a boring affair. I do agree that Johnson played a bit with Ketchel, however things got inserting in the 12th round. Ketchel floored Johnson. Johnson was hurt and shaken up, but got up and scored his best Ko on film, but fell down himself during the process. Ketchel was out like a light. Yet Ketchel as a middle weight floored and hurt Johnson with basically the first solid punch he landed during the fight. This has to make me question Johnsons chin, which in previous fights could be exposed by power punchers.

Johnson's fifth title match was vs. Jeffries. Jeffires retired undefeated as the champ, cleaning almost every good fighter in his entire era. Jeffries was 35 years old when the match happened. He was in-active for 6 years, which is a career for some fighters, and lost 100 pounds of fat to get into shape. Never in boxing history has a man been in-active this long and come back to be champion. Johnson was wary of Jeffries early and often clinched. The first four rounds were likely 2-2 on the cards. Jeffries started running out of gas as early as round 5. He was visibly slower than he was in his prime yet he managed to cut Johnson, and nearly knocked Johnson down from body shots of the mid to late rounds of the fight. I have a source if people want to see this. Check the on line Unforgivable Blackness link. Johnson moved in for the kill when Jeffries had nothing left. Jeffries did not quit or foul out like Johnson did in the past. He gave it his best under the circumstances, and went out on his shield. IMO, this fight is what Johnsons legacy is mainly based on because Jeffries was a legendary fighter in his own time. Jeffries was the only really good " name " heavyweight that Johnson beat during his title reign. At least on paper. The match meant little in a boxing sense as many great old champions often lose fights when they are past their primes. Think Louis vs Marciano, or Ali vs Holmes.

Johnson's sixth match was vs Fireman Flynn. Flynn had a record of 29-8 with 14 ND's or draws. He was Ko'd 5 times in prior to the match and 15 times after this match! Johnson failed to floor Flynn. The fight ended when Johnson would hold Flynn's head, and then hit him, while Flynn would foul with head butts. The official result in a dismal match should read Johnson win via DQ in 8.

Johnson's seventh title defense was a sham. He fought black Journeyman Jim " battling " Johnson. Jim Johnson had a very suspect record of 14-12-3 coming into the match. Jim Johnson was Ko'd twice prior to the match and 5 more times after the match. The fight was scheduled for 20 rounds of boxing according to the best researched website ( Cyber boxing zone ). NEws reads says Jim Battling was the better!. Somehow, the fight was ruled a draw and Jack Johnson kept his title!

Johnson's eight title match was vs a very mediocre Frank Moran. Moran had a 25-9-4 record coming into this fight. He was Ko'd twice before this fight, and five times after the fight. The fight was shockingly close. Like many of Johnson's other title fights there were no knockdowns. I saw a good 40+ minutes of action that included most of the rounds. Johnson seemed to barely edge Moran.

Johnsons final title match vs Giant Jess Willard. Willard was not very fast or skilled, but he could punch, was durable, and was in his prime. His record was a fair one at 23-5-1. Johnson was older at 37, but Willard himself was no spring chicken at 34. Johnson's weight for this fight was 205, which lower than all of his title fights save one. Eventually Willard's durability and stamina won the day. Johnson slowed down, and then Willard knocked him out with one solid punch. I don't hold this loss against Johnson due to his age, but Willard was likely Johnson's most formidable title opponent.

Summary: Johnson in his title reign only scored two Ko's. They were vs a middle weight and a washed up old x champ. As I chronicled many of the fighters were knocked out before or after facing Johnson, yet Johnson himself failed to score KO or knockdowns. Johnson drew with a middle weight and did not look good ( O' Brien ). He was knocked down by another middle weight. ( Ketchel ) . He got beat on by journeyman is Battling Jim Johnson. Johnson avoided the best challengers in Langford, Smith ( who tko'd him in a 4 round ex match ) , McVey, and Jeanette. Although he was older, Johnson was Ko'd by his toughest title match opponent in Willard.

While Jack Johnson was champ, top fighters such as Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Luther McCarthy, Gunboat Smith, Sam McVey and Jack Dillon did not get lineal heavyweight title shots.. These men were more formidable than ANY Johnson title defense opponent in the era. You could argue between Willard, Dillon, and McCarthy. Big time money was up to make some of these matches with Langford, Jeanette, or McVey. And let's be honest, Willard was not as a good as Langford, Jeanette, Gunboat Smith, or McVey. Duckage thy name is Johnson.

As a title defense run, I rate Johnson's the weakest of all the great champions. Far below Jeffries, Dempseys, Louis, Marcianos, Pattersons Ali, Holmes, Tysons, and Lewis. I continue to believe that Johnson ring prowess pre 1906 was over rated and his title reign was a lack luster run vs fighters who were too small, to old, or simply journeyman.

^^I Might edit and tinker with this post later.
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Kaufmann had also defeated George Gardner prior to facing Johnson, and it should be noted that in his next 5 fights ,after being totally outclassed by Johnson.Kaufmann gave O Brien two one - sided thrashings , beat Al Kubiak,Bill Lang, and Tony Ross.

McGrain · Dec 13, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

I don't see many debating the facts as I listed them.
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Nobody can be ****ed Mendoza, and that's the truth. I'll bite though and see how many sources you can turn up. You've made noises lately about your impartiality. In conversation with me you have said that you "didn't edit the newspapers and you didn't edit the films". You use primary sources and they tell the story. Right?

What is your PRIMARY SOURCE for O'Brien being a title fight?

What is your PRIMARY SOURCE for Burns being ill?

How are you weighing your PRIMARY SOURCES in indicating O'Brien beat Johnson "had a decision been allowed"? To me it seems pretty clear that the papers were split over a very close fight and that O'Brien finished a mess.

What is your PRIMARY SOURCE for suggesting Jim Johnson was scheduled for 20 rounDs? Every primary source listed on this forum indicates it was otherwise, but you keep ignoring them in favour of a secondary source.

Mendoza · Dec 14, 2010

McGrain Nobody can be ****ed Mendoza, and that's the truth. I'll bite though and see how many sources you can turn up. You've made noises lately about your impartiality. In conversation with me you have said that you "didn't edit the newspapers and you didn't edit the films". You use primary sources and they tell the story. Right?

What is your PRIMARY SOURCE for O'Brien being a title fight?

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Anytime the champion is in the ring in a non-exhibition match, it should be viewed as a title fight. Below are some sources.

Wilkes-Barre Times Leader had O'Brien winning three rounds, with two even, and 5th round to Johnson (same report was printed in NY Sun and Washington Herald).

>>Score one for O'Brien.

NY Times ruled it a draw. Wire in multiple newspapers (for example, San Francisco Call) had it a draw.

>>NY times says a draw

Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought O'Brien the winner by a shade.

>>Score another for O'Brien

Sports editor of Philadelphia Inquirer in May 23 issue wrote: "A half dozen writers, for instance, gave Johnson the credit of having won the bout, but no two of them agreed as to the distance by which he won, and if you read all these accounts you must have come to the conclusion that he won any distance from a whisker to a city block. And it was the same with the able gentlemen who espoused the O'Brien cause. Some declared that he won all the way, and that but for his willingness to take the initiative there would have been no milling at all, while others gave him the decision solely for the splendid showing he made against such a tremendous physical handicap."

>>> So there you have it. Now, can you name me one ATG heavy in his prime as Johnson was i( Johnson was in his prime in 1909 ) who would look like this vs. a past his best middle weight? Please reply.

What is your PRIMARY SOURCE for Burns being ill?
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>>> I have said before that Burns was ill. He was. Burns was at a very low weight and begged promoter the Promoter to postpone the match. This is documented. As for the Jaundice source, I hope the premier historian on early black prize fighters in Kevin Smith is enough. Smith who is a little slanted on his subject material ( to be be fair most writers are ), Smith says there is evidence Burns had a Jaundice.

What is your PRIMARY SOURCE for suggesting Jim Johnson was scheduled for 20 rounDs? Every primary source listed on this forum indicates it was otherwise, but you keep ignoring them in favour of a secondary source

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>>> The Cyber boxing zone is the best researched site around. They do not use slim sources. They say it was 20 rounds. To flush this out, why don't you log on there ans ask the editor? I am willing to changer my opinion here. I have posted the write up on the Jack Johnson vs Battling Johnson fight. In your honest opinion based on the NY times write up, who do you think deserved to win by the end of the 10th round?

Thanks in advance for being objective.

Boilermaker · Dec 14, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

Anytime the champion is in the ring in a non-exhibition match, it should be viewed as a title fight. Below are some sources.

>>> So there you have it. Now, can you name me one ATG heavy in his prime as Johnson was i( Johnson was in his prime in 1909 ) who would look like this vs. a past his best middle weight? Please reply.

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Jim Jeffries!

Was handily defeated by past prime middleweight Bob Fitzsimmons after 6 rounds!

I really think that Philadelphia Jack O Brien is really given the short end of the stick nowadays. Let us not forget that he beat two World heavyweight champions in Bob Fitzsimmons and Tommy Burns. He was an alphabet World Champion, and he took the former champ Tommy Burns a total of 46 rounds in three fights with a record of 1-1-1. Plus he beat Mike Shrek, who was the man who KOd the last champion Jack Johnson. He knocked down Jack Johnson conquerer Marvin Hart, he had just gone the distance with Stanley Ketchell, the man who knocked down Jack Johnson.

In fact, if you look at that, really, you would expect an Obrien Johnson fight to be made, without question. Until he lost to Ketchell and Langford, he was probably the standout challenger to Johnson title.

When i think about it, O Brien Jeffries might actually be a very interesting fight over 6 rounds. To turn your question around, i wonder how many ATG fighters would be favoured to beat O Brien in a ND 6 round fight. I dont think many would.

McGrain · Dec 14, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

>>> So there you have it.
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"There I have", what? I've asked you to produce a primary source claiming the O'Brien fight was a title fight - you can't.

Perhaps you've backed your claim that "The fight was ruled a draw, but had a decision been allowed, the news papers suggest O'Brien was the better by a shade"? No. You have not. In fact you've saved me the bother of proving you wrong in that the picture is very, very confused:

"A half dozen writers, for instance, gave Johnson the credit of having won the bout, but no two of them agreed as to the distance by which he won, and if you read all these accounts you must have come to the conclusion that he won any distance from a whisker to a city block. And it was the same with the able gentlemen who espoused the O'Brien cause. "

So, no primary source on the title fight, and the same mess everyone else sees when they look at the primary sources. Fail?

>>> I have said before that Burns was ill. He was. Burns was at a very low weight and begged promoter the Promoter to postpone the match. This is documented. As for the Jaundice source, I hope the premier historian on early black prize fighters in Kevin Smith is enough. Smith who is a little slanted on his subject material ( to be be fair most writers are ), Smith says there is evidence Burns had a Jaundice.
Click to expand...

What evidence? Again, this is not a primary source. It is you doing what you always do - leaping all over the merest hint of sliver of a problem concerning the Johnson legacy. You have labelled this a FACT. But you don't even provide a direct secondary source, never mind primary.

>>> The Cyber boxing zone is the best researched site around. They do not use slim sources. They say it was 20 rounds. To flush this out, why don't you log on there ans ask the editor? I am willing to changer my opinion here. I have posted the write up on the Jack Johnson vs Battling Johnson fight. In your honest opinion based on the NY times write up, who do you think deserved to win by the end of the 10th round?

Thanks in advance for being objective.
Click to expand...

No primary source here either, a secondary source.

And this INSPITE of the fact that primary sources have been produced on this forum indicating a 10 round fight. Why do you consistantly ignore the primary sources provided by mattd and others and prioritise the secondary report?

Why?

Instead of inviting me to log onto a website and pursue an editor, why don't you just explain that?

I don't think anyone on this forum is as hard on Johnson as me, apart from you. I am the only guy on the forum, I think, that rates Johnson outside his ten. And still, your position on Johnson looks insane to me.

mcvey · Dec 14, 2010

Boilermaker said: ↑

Jim Jeffries!

Was handily defeated by past prime middleweight Bob Fitzsimmons after 6 rounds!

I really think that Philadelphia Jack O Brien is really given the short end of the stick nowadays. Let us not forget that he beat two World heavyweight champions in Bob Fitzsimmons and Tommy Burns. He was an alphabet World Champion, and he took the former champ Tommy Burns a total of 46 rounds in three fights with a record of 1-1-1. Plus he beat Mike Shrek, who was the man who KOd the last champion Jack Johnson. He knocked down Jack Johnson conquerer Marvin Hart, he had just gone the distance with Stanley Ketchell, the man who knocked down Jack Johnson.

In fact, if you look at that, really, you would expect an Obrien Johnson fight to be made, without question. Until he lost to Ketchell and Langford, he was probably the standout challenger to Johnson title.

When i think about it, O Brien Jeffries might actually be a very interesting fight over 6 rounds. To turn your question around, i wonder how many ATG fighters would be favoured to beat O Brien in a ND 6 round fight. I dont think many would.
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O Brien was the undefeated Light Heavyweight Champion when he met Johnson,he had beaten Choynski,Schreck ,and drawn with two heavyweight Champs,Burns and Hart,after the Johnson no dec O Brien still had enough to beat Schreck and Flynn.O Brien was 31 when he met Johnson the same age as Johnson.

janitor · Dec 14, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

I don't see many debating the facts as I listed them.
Click to expand...

The most powerfull form of propaganda is creative use of the truth.

mcvey · Dec 14, 2010

janitor said: ↑

The most powerfull form of propaganda is creative use of the truth.
Click to expand...

There is another term for it , it's called lying.:good

Swarmer · Dec 14, 2010

Philadelphia Jack O' Brien: A past-his-prime middleweight? Poor *******

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