Marciano's 49-0 vs. The Rest

Inspired by la-califa's thread. To put into perspective how significant the "0" is on Marciano's record I started to think about how other fighters would have compared if they retired the very last fight before their first loss to see who much weight their undefeated record would hold and how it compares to Rocky Marciano's.

This is primarily for heavyweight's and the only criteria is that they have won the title with an undefeated record so this precludes Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Sonny Liston, etc. The idea is not to recalibrate history so don't change any facts just include the fighter up until their last fight undefeated. The obvious drawbacks are some fighters were able to accomplish alot after their first loss and others of course accomplished very little.

I have included a poll but I'm equally if not more interested in reading your responses.

So the question is which Heavyweight Champion in history would surpass Rocky Marciano if they immediately retired right before their first loss?


Larry Holmes retiring at 48-0 I can't think of any fighter who could retire right before their first loss without looking like a career left in midstream. I suppose history would have been kinder to Holmes with an undefeated record. But the fact is, he never truly unified, he never gave rematches and he reigned with splintered titles. He'd still get the same criticisms that impact his legacy now but the difference is that his claim of being unbeaten and untied would likely add rose tints to his legacy as time wore on. So when all is said and done; he'd move up. No doubt about it.

Verdict: He'd be on par or interchangeable with Marciano on top 10 lists more so than he is now. He's the only guy I give the edge to over Marciano.

George Foreman retiring after Norton would leave way too many questions. He was young, powerful and he just dominated two fighters who beat Muhammad Ali who was at the time considered a good champion/great fighter. It wouldn't make sense and his legacy would feel incomplete especially since, unlike Frazier or Tyson he never cleaned out the division.

Verdict: His unbeaten record would still rank him below Marciano.


Joe Frazier had essentially cleaned out the division (something he's never given credit for) and beat Muhammad Ali as the last man standing answering any questions about Joe's ability in the FOTC. He was never expected to lose to George Foreman anyway so if he retired I suppose it wouldn't be as bad. People were getting used to the idea that Joe Frazier was the man to beat in the Heavyweight division and while some regarded as 2nd fight with Ali should take place to settle the score if it never happened and he hung up the gloves I suppose most writers would go to their graves swearing that Frazier would have whipped him again anyway.

Verdict: Walking away without giving Ali the rematch which the public wanted to see would dog his resume. The public would eventually get over it but it would still have him rank below Marciano.

Evander Holyfield retiring right before Riddick Bowe and retiring unbeaten would have made him a smallish heavyweight champ who was lucky to possess "Mike Tyson's" belts by taking the path of least resistance and struggling along the way. He's have no Bowe fights that showed the world his character, no Tyson fights, no Moorer fights, His HW resume would be rather light, lacking both depth and signature wins. I suppose his best win (at Heavyweight) would be either and old George Foreman or and old Larry Holmes. Either way considering how hard Evander had to work to get the respect of the public that he deserved from, leaving with the "0" would do him no justice whatsoever.

Verdict: Evander did more at Heavyweight after his first loss than he did prior to it. He'd rank below Marciano.

Mike Tyson; if there ever was a fighter who had the mystique and aura that Mike Tyson possessed, I suppose I wasn't around or old enough to appreciate it. This was a guy who as a result of significant marketing and exposure was able to showcase his talent and incredible power from the moment his career began. Unlike Foreman or Liston this guy was sending shockwaves so early in his career that there was talk that this guy was going to be the HW champion despite not having an Olympic Medal or background. If Mike Tyson retired after Carl Williams, his career would feel abbreviated given his age but the fact that he cleared out division and unified the titles that Holmes allowed to float around; I'd have a hard time believing that it wouldn't benefit him given the benefit of hindsight. It would feel incomplete but Tyson with a blemish free record without the benefit of hindsight, our perception of him would be overwhelmingly positive with the only criticism being that he deprived us of a decade worth of more of his greatness.

Verdict: Tyson's popularity and the fact that he cleared out the division with no real rivals would heal the woulds that public would have from an early Tyson departure. Though some were calling for a Holyfield fight as early as 1989, Evander was never expected to beat Tyson and the calls for a Holyfield would dwindle as time wore on. Tyson was viewed as unbeatable, perception would become reality. He'd rank on par with Marciano on many, many lists.

Riddick Bowe made a name for himself and validated his status as a top fighter when he beat Evander Holyfield. It was his coming out party, he simply couldn't retire without really defending the title. Wouldn't really work with Bowe.

Verdict: It would a case of being over before it even started. Rank well below Marciano.

Micheal Spinks: After beating Holmes he sort of coasted in the HW division biding his time and looking for high profile fights. Tangstad and Cooney were filler opponents. Cooney being a big puncher validated Spinks ability to get in there with a big man who can punch and walk out with his hands raised despite Gerry not being in peak form. The Tyson loss simply destroyed his reputation, undeservedly so I should add. He couldn't retire and expect his "0" to carry any merit as to his ability at Heavyweight. He had a brief stint, he needed more fights at HW for it to carry any merit.

Verdict: As it stand he doesn't really rate at Heavyweight, avoided Tyson and heading for the hills wouldn't really do him any justice. He'd sitll rank below Marciano.

Muhammad Ali: Retiring before the FOTC would leave out a significant part of his work out. While Ali was never really a "Liston" "Foreman" or "Tyson" he was increasingly becoming more and more appreciated reluctantly. His 2 wins over Liston have asterick's, his win over Patterson, Chuvalo, Williams, Folley would all be given serious clout but Ali's greatness was solidified if not enhanced by what he did in the 70s. Without his wins over Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Lyle, Shavers, etc his legacy would not carry the same weight. He'd likely be top a top 10 HW especially since he was beating all contenders put in his path. He'd be considered chinny, and his mental toughness would likely be questioned. He'd be somewhat of an enigma, he was the unconventional Heavyweight Champion who fought like no other fighter before him had. In all likelihood he'd be grossly underrated today; Legacywise and H2H.

Verdict: Though arguments could be made that his resume up to had better signature wins FOTC carried more depth than Maricano's; The Rock's 49 fight streak would carry the day. In all likelihood, the consensus would have him just below Marciano.

I didn't want to bother with Leon Spinks or Micheal Moorer and I excluded Jim Jeffries because he had 2 draws unlike Mariciano.

 

I forgot to put Muhammad Ali in the Poll so if you can include him on other.

 

Leave it to Foreman Hook to ruin yet another thread.

If there is anyone here against stem cell research perhaps that post ^ should help you reassess your position.

Foreman Hook likes George Foreman and hates Mike Tyson. We get it. I'm the first to say that we are all entitled to opinions, after all this is a forum; but unlike other aliases or joke posters, Foreman Hook is here only to promote an agenda. This thread had nothing to do with anything that he's talking about but he simply couldn't help himself so he decided to figure out a way to undermine Mike Tyson. This is a Marciano thread.

He only talks about the same few fighters over and over again offering nothing new and the only time you see him switch up is when he talks about Tyson opponents (usually undermines them) or Foreman opponents (usually aggrandizes them) and yes he occasionally insults Wladimir and Vitaly Klitschko. He doesn't offer insight he offers cheer leading sessions when talking about the few fighters that he actually knows about. I wouldn't be surprised if most of his posts were a cut and past job.

Foreman Hook, with your poor grammar and bad spelling notwithstanding you've essentially become the village idiot of the classic forum. I have a hard time believing any knowledgeable poster in the classic forum actually respects your opinion and finds your posts informative.

The only way to better yourself learn about other fighters so that every thread you post in doesn't turn into a cheerleading session for Foreman or a roast on Mike Tyson. Over time people will start to respect you more, and I will start to respect you more.

 

.

I can see why you'd rate him higher but I disagree because Foreman never cleaned out the division. Marciano did and he has more depth.

.

Agree, though it should be noted that after FOTC Frazier was THE MAN. His career would have still been incomplete but it would have been probably a better exit point.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Absolutely.