Why no questions about Frazier not giving Ali a rematch ?

Smokin Joe won the most important fight in Heavyweight History.

And he put an 'excalamation point' on it, by flooring Ali in the 15th.

As for the (2) defenses in 1972 vs. Ron Stander and Terry Daniels.
Yes, pretty ba, against two fighters who had no chance of winning, what so ever.

But, these fights were broadcast on National TV, in prime time.
Look deeper into this, and you'll understand that the advertisers in 1972 did not want
two black fighters fighting on National TV during prime time.
It would have been a ratings nightmare.

Ron Stander was built up as the 'Bluffs Brawler', a mid-west country farmboy
with unheard of strength, from working on the farm.
Never been knocked down, or taken a back-ward step.
And, most of all, he was 'white' and young, and not beat up.

As for ratings, it went through the roof, and the advertisers were happy as it
lasted 5 rounds.

 

Yeah, I think it's been over-played.
I don't think it's "rubbish" though - every fighter has a peak.

But Frazier doesn't need "apologists". He's universally respected by everyone who knows anything about boxing.

How do you calculate how far from prime they are ?

 

Ali was older and had lost his best years to the exile. He was never quite the same afterwards. In Manilla, I'd also say that Ali had more gruelling fights behind him (Foreman + Norton x 2).

 

:d

 

I think Joe Frazier was a little taken back too, after the Ali fight in 1971.

Ali, bad-mouthed Joe alot. Joe Frazier was hurt, because he had help support Ali during his time in exile, and even lent him money.

That Ali, what a wonderful guy.

 

Most people consider Frazier to have taken more punishment. It's not clear-cut either way.

On one hand, you claim Ali recovered and improved from the "exile rust syndrome" thing, in the period after the first Frazier fight, therefore the age thing is a red herring. If you think he was better at 30, 31 and 32, than he was at 29, it's nonsensical to talk about him being older.

Almost everyone, including Ali, thought Frazier was washed-up in 1974 and in 1975, and maybe they were wrong. But it's a stretch to say Frazier was as good as he had been in 1971, and it's fair to say he was in decline. Some people blame "his style". On the other hand, you have me quite convinced that Ali was as good in 1974 as he was in 1971, or better.
I don't think it's fair then to say Ali was further from his prime than Frazier in fights 2 & 3.

 

Age and inactivity plays a big part in how past prime someone is. There's nothing arbitrary about that.

Two of those Frazier had his whole career and he certainly wasn't demotivated against Ali. And he may have been a swarmer, but he didn't have many fights and not that many tough ones either.

 

Un,,,,,,,,

If you ever check-out the Frazier-Ellis II 1974 fight in Australia, you can see how
far Joe had dropped off in the 'skills department'.
Limited 'bob and weave', Joe's forte.
His left hook power was leaving him too.

 

You're right, I actually do think Ali was better in the rematch than in the other two, so that one is close as I see it. But those who sniff at the notion that Ali was better in the rematch than in the first have no reason but to think he was further from his prime than Joe.

Yes, Frazier did decline somewhat after FOTC, and certainly had declined by Manilla, but I still think Ali was further from his 66-67 version in Manilla than Joe was from his 70-71 version. In FOTC Frazier was at his peak, while Ali was four years past his.

 

On the other hand he looked great in the Quarry rematch. Better than he did in the first.

Also, Frazier looked no worse against Ellis, which was in 1975 I believe, than Ali did against Lyle, Wepner etc.

 

It would have been ideal, really. Ali-Quarry was effectively an eliminator for a shot at Joe, but even before that fight Ali had agreed to fight Lewis and Patterson, so he himself figured he wasn't quite ready to risk it all by facing Frazier again. Problems lay in the fact that Ali wanted pay-parity and Joe, as champion, wanted the bigger purse. California was mooted as the venue but Durham didn't want to fight there due to their 'rules' (which included the fight being stopped if a fighter's gum shield comes out, 5-point must system), he said he'd fight anywhere but there, including England. The WBA were starting to come down heavy on Joe, a relationship that was never that strong, whereas the WBC insisted he fought someone with a pulse. He went for the latter and took on the No: 2 contender- and was mashed.