Jean Pascal v Bernard Hopkins, thoughts.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Robbi, Dec 18, 2010.


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  1. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I thought it was difficult to give Pascal any of the rounds after round 3 or so. He didn't do anything, and Hopkins completely controlled the fight. The first knockdown was also a blatant rabbit punch.
     
    TheGreatA, Dec 19, 2010
    TheGreatA, Dec 19, 2010
    #31
  2. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Does anyone want to cry bull**** on any particular round that I scored? Which round do you feel I have no reasonable argument for whatsoever?
     
    sweet_scientist, Dec 19, 2010
    sweet_scientist, Dec 19, 2010
    #32
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The bull**** - if there is any, which I'm not saying there is - are in your drawn rounds. I'm sure you have your case SS, but the fact is under the rules of boxing as they are currently interpreted, drawn rounds do not occur. There is no way any actual judge is going to score those rounds even - in my eyes, this is going to invalidate your card to a degree, because it becomes an opinion indifferent to the actuality of judging as it exists.

    As Jim Watt says, "if I can't seperate them, I won't seperate them". I like your cards. But yeah, it's invalid to me. Those three rounds, and who they are scored for, decide the fight. You offer a fine breakdown, i'm sure, but you haven't decided upon a victor.
     
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    #33
  4. itrymariti

    itrymariti Cañas! Full Member

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    If you miss or get countered every time you throw, your work-rate is bound to drop.
     
    itrymariti, Dec 19, 2010
    itrymariti, Dec 19, 2010
    #34
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This was even true of Calzaghe, who trades off swarming pressure.
     
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    #35
  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    What's this ?
     
    Unforgiven, Dec 19, 2010
    Unforgiven, Dec 19, 2010
    #36
  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I was wrong.
     
    Unforgiven, Dec 19, 2010
    Unforgiven, Dec 19, 2010
    #37
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Rounds scored even by proffessional judges are far rarer than round scored even by SS.
     
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    #38
  9. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I hear what you're saying, and it's true that judges are reluctant nowadays to call even rounds, but to me it's not more justifiable to randomly give someone a round 'just to get a result' than it is to call it as you actually see it.

    Say I flipped a coin in those rounds and then jotted the round winner down according to what the coin said. Would that validate my card?

    What if I created a fiction in my head to distinguish the rounds? Would that be better?
     
    sweet_scientist, Dec 19, 2010
    sweet_scientist, Dec 19, 2010
    #39
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Is that something to do with a rule change ?

    (Surely we're not trying to imitate professional judges. If that's the case, why bother - just accept their combined scores as correct.)

    I don't see any case for arbitrarily "finding a winner" in a round that you honestly viewed as even. I've heard people make such arguments, but it's never more than complete nonsense.
     
    Unforgiven, Dec 19, 2010
    Unforgiven, Dec 19, 2010
    #40
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I totally agree with you.


    haha, well, I guess the way to say it is "work to found a way to score the round". Possibly you need to adjust your criteria to make your cards more friendly to the modern ring...

    Not that I dislike your cards at all, it's just that - in it's way your card is as bad as an badly judged one. However it comes about, your card just isn't going to look like the fight, as the rules are applied for Hopkins and Pascal.

    Most crucially of all you must allow for the fact that Hopkins and Pascal know this as they work in pursuit of the win...they know how the scoring system works, and box to manipulate it.
     
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    #41
  12. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What I believe most judges do nowadays is just randomly (though with some bull**** rationalisation to it) pick a winner in a close round and if another close round comes up, they pick the other guy to even it out. As far as the 'closeness' of cards go, I don't think mine end up being any wider than the average judge. It's just that the overall score of both fighters ends up going up with my cards.

    At the end of the day, I don't think my scoring even rounds causes me to get 'unorthodox' results. At the same time though, if a round is real close and people have to dig around to find a reason to give it to a guy, can you really complain if the round goes the other way?

    In those cases, it can be a 2 point swing per round, which can result in largely divergent cards if you're consistently giving close rounds to one guy...
     
    sweet_scientist, Dec 19, 2010
    sweet_scientist, Dec 19, 2010
    #42
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    We agree upon the vagaries of the modern scorecard.

    I will give an example to maybe make myself clearer.

    How did a fighter "steal" a round in the 60's? He did it by fighting the final minute. How do fighters steal rounds now? They fight for the final 8 seconds. The judges you describe, desperate to make a pick, can be easily be hoodwinked in the final round.

    It's flawed - but it's true.

    The key point is that the fighters know this...that's what it has to come back to.

    Now, you obviously have a lower threshold than modern judges for scoring rounds 10-10. This being the case, your cards withdraw from Pascal and Hopkins the right to box to the rules as they are implemented. They have no opporunity to box to your rules. See what I mean? They know how to win rounds in front of the judges that are scoring their fight, but not on your card.

    This is why your card is compromised (to me).
     
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    #43
  14. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Mac, all other things being equal, a guy can still win a round in the last ten seconds on my card, but he's actually got to distinguish himself from the other guy to do it. As far as I'm concerned, I'm simply unwilling to 'find' reasons to give guys rounds when they aren't really there.

    I've never understood the term 'steal the round' to literally mean rob a guy of the round through no legitimate means. I always understood it to mean that a guy does something at the end of the round to distinguish himself from the other guy in an otherwise even or heading the other way round.

    If it means the former, well, the sport is corrupt to me....
     
    sweet_scientist, Dec 19, 2010
    sweet_scientist, Dec 19, 2010
    #44
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I understand. But the bottom line is that your criteria for scoring fights are at odds with how boxing is actually judged...not that it really matters, as I said, i've enjoyed your cards in the past, it's just that you asked for opinions.
     
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2010
    #45
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